1.3 is the spell power coefficient
1020 is conflag damage with no gear, no talents that effect immolate (besides the necessary 3/3 Improved Immolate), conflag, or fire damage - I.E the base damage.
I tested it out by adding talents and testing damage 1 at a time with no gear, and then added gear and that's what I came up with. It pinpoints the exact damage.
Edit: So you take the base immolate dot damage, add SP, multiply it by 6% from aftermath, then add conflag base damage, and SP * 1.3. Multiply all that by the talent/buff multipliers.
My point was that if i can do so much dmg (23k) with only self buffs then even with resilience capped (-33%), the dmg is still too high.
But did you do it in PVP gear? Doing 23k on a Conflag crit is great, but if you have 0 resil and run with Fel Armor instead of Demon Armor, every melee class will do the same right back to you. I believe you will die inside a Cheap Shot without decent resilience, Demon Armor and at least pushing extra STA. I'm assuming you are pulling this off with Dying Curse, which isn't on demand and so you can't even gear as a glass cannon hoping to 100->0 someone immediately since you may not get the proc.
Incidentally, looking at the numbers, a 23k crit Conflag requires 4045 spell power and a Chaotic Skyfire Diamond (which you wouldn't use in PVP), a previous Pyroclasm proc and CoE already on the target (not to mention Immolate). I don't think that 23k damage is the number to balance Conflag around in PVP. In realistic arena PVP, a top end crit of 12k (after resilience) in the current season's gear is a better start point for making a balance decision.
1.3 is the spell power coefficient
1020 is conflag damage with no gear, no talents that effect immolate (besides the necessary 3/3 Improved Immolate), conflag, or fire damage - I.E the base damage.
I tested it out by adding talents and testing damage 1 at a time with no gear, and then added gear and that's what I came up with. It pinpoints the exact damage.
Edit: So you take the base immolate dot damage, add SP, multiply it by 6% from aftermath, then add conflag base damage, and SP * 1.3. Multiply all that by the talent/buff multipliers.
You're adding needless complexity to the calculation by pretending conflag has a damage of its own. The actual calculation goes like this:
General buffs being stuff that adds to all damage or all fire damage, such as MD, MC, ES, CoE, etc. Immolate buffs being Aftermath, Imp Immo, and Glyph of Immolate. Coefficient being 0.2 unless you have FnB, in which case it's 0.22. 157 is the base damage of an immolate tick.
The immolate buffs are all additive, while the general buffs tend to be multiplicative - though there's one exception, and that's the interesting result here: Fire stone is additive with emberstorm. Like this, assuming 2k SP:
Another question about conflagrate: Is its non-crit damage reduced by resilience ? As it is based on Immolate damage, which, as a dot, is reducted by resilience.
If it is, and its crit damage is also reduced by resilience (as it's not a 'dot that can crit', but 'damage based on a dot, that can crit'), maybe this will keep it in check for PvP.
But did you do it in PVP gear? Doing 23k on a Conflag crit is great, but if you have 0 resil and run with Fel Armor instead of Demon Armor, every melee class will do the same right back to you. I believe you will die inside a Cheap Shot without decent resilience, Demon Armor and at least pushing extra STA. I'm assuming you are pulling this off with Dying Curse, which isn't on demand and so you can't even gear as a glass cannon hoping to 100->0 someone immediately since you may not get the proc.
Incidentally, looking at the numbers, a 23k crit Conflag requires 4045 spell power and a Chaotic Skyfire Diamond (which you wouldn't use in PVP), a previous Pyroclasm proc and CoE already on the target (not to mention Immolate). I don't think that 23k damage is the number to balance Conflag around in PVP. In realistic arena PVP, a top end crit of 12k (after resilience) in the current season's gear is a better start point for making a balance decision.
True. I am not doing pvp since a lot of time. I just post some numbers to observe. Yes I was in pve gear but as you can see from my gear I miss a lot of at the momment "end game" items. But you can have a lot of spell power and resiliense together. But you will loose other stats like spirit or haste. I will not say that you will have as much spellpower as in pve, but you can have at least 80-90% of it with 700-800 resilience. Also like mages that they could do so much burst dmg, they were using pve gear in pvp, if you are so well geared you can do the same. Ofcourse its up to you...
Last edited by Memnarchon : 03/20/09 at 6:07 PM.
Reason: Correcting the capitals etc :P
Fel synergy Fel Synergy - Spell - World of Warcraft is bugged at the momment on ptr and it doesnt work. I think most people that fought today against Mimiron could notice that their pet was dieing easily.
I wanted to see if/what effect spell and fire stones were having on conflag/immolate.
The results conclude that conflag is only effected by the firestone, and it receives no buff from the +%increased periodic damage from spellstone that increases immolates damage. If you want to see the full #'s (with/without Master Conjurer) they are below.
Unless I'm misreading, these numbers are unchanged from their values in the previous PTR patch. How is that possible when Immolate damage is nerfed due to the glyph change (despite the increase in the direct damage)?
It looks to me like the glyph is bugged - it seems to have retained its old 20% buff to the periodic damage, and has lost the 10% nerf to the direct damage.
This may have been discussed before but with glyph of life tap out now is it worth breaking up 4pt7 for 2pt8?
Between Fel Armor and the glyph each life tap gives an additional 50% of spirit as SP. LT every 20 seconds would be 150 sp over the whole fight VS. 20% increase to UA which is only one spell.
Breaking the 4pt7 for better gear was already shown to be an increase in dps. Replace the head with the hood of rationality and the legs with leggings of the wanton spell caster. Gloves and chest can be replaced as well.
Breaking the 4pt7 for better gear was already shown to be an increase in dps. Replace the head with the hood of rationality and the legs with leggings of the wanton spell caster. Gloves and chest can be replaced as well.
Please indicate where this was "already shown", because Simulationcraft certainly shows otherwise.
Having said that, though, initial tests show it *is* worth breaking up 4pt7 for 2pt8.
Please indicate where this was "already shown", because Simulationcraft certainly shows otherwise.
Having said that, though, initial tests show it *is* worth breaking up 4pt7 for 2pt8.
I believe this was talked about in the thread devoted to debating the 4pc t7 bonus, and the overall decision was that it was better to use 2 pc and gear that gave you more than 100+ spelldmg and/or 100+spelldmg worth of stats combined than use the some what lack luster t7 items. I believe the optimal pieces were t7.5 shoulders/and gloves and use the Hood of rationality sanctum's flowing vestments (or gown of the spell weaver depending on other gear) and leggings of the wanton spellcaster/Leggins of mortal arrogance. The combined increase in stats was greater than the 4pc bonus.+the stats on the t7 items.
I believe this was talked about in the thread devoted to debating the 4pc t7 bonus, and the overall decision was that it was better to use 2 pc and gear that gave you more than 100+ spelldmg and/or 100+spelldmg worth of stats combined than use the some what lack luster t7 items. I believe the optimal pieces were t7.5 shoulders/and gloves and use the Hood of rationality sanctum's flowing vestments (or gown of the spell weaver depending on other gear) and leggings of the wanton spellcaster/Leggins of mortal arrogance. The combined increase in stats was greater than the 4pc bonus.+the stats on the t7 items.
I believe this was talked about in the thread devoted to debating the 4pc t7 bonus, and the overall decision was that it was better to use 2 pc and gear that gave you more than 100+ spelldmg and/or 100+spelldmg worth of stats combined than use the some what lack luster t7 items. I believe the optimal pieces were t7.5 shoulders/and gloves and use the Hood of rationality sanctum's flowing vestments (or gown of the spell weaver depending on other gear) and leggings of the wanton spellcaster/Leggins of mortal arrogance. The combined increase in stats was greater than the 4pc bonus.+the stats on the t7 items.
I've seen the thread, but I haven't found much beyond personal opinion and general handwaving. It's a complex issue and does eventually boil down to a subjective choice, but it's certainly not as clear cut as everyone seems to think. I personally have deliberately kept the set bonus even when the non-set upgrades were available to me.
More importantly, though, we're talking about 3.1 now, and the life tap glyph very definitely makes 4t7 much better than any pre-3.1 non-set pieces.
Ok, so lets look at this again than as you are right that was pre GoLT, so In order for that gear to be better you would need to preserve 2 pc and from the aditional pieces gain 177 spellpower in not only spellpower but stats.
177=300*.39 (demonic aegis) +(200*.2)
Lets assume we are just replacing chest, pants and helm and 19 spelldmg gems only (meta is not a factor) and all spirit is factored in as spelldmg assuming .39 conversion rate (rounded down) all other stats will be added at the conversion rate listed below.
The question is how do you weight stats? Leaving them out of the equation completely doesn't work in the real world, but just comparing straight spelldmg we get this
Just using spelldmg you see a 73 seplldmg increase in the other BiS gear. This is not factoring in (as stated above) other stats of any sort which could sway it one way or the other (leggings of the wanton spellcaster for instance are, in my opinion, much better than mortal arrogance, if you can remove the hit from some where elsem also factor in set bonuses etc, you definitly gain much more than that on your gear set from the BiS. Zak if you have a better way of seeing that please let me know.
The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.
Just using spelldmg you see a 73 seplldmg increase in the other BiS gear. This is not factoring in (as stated above) other stats of any sort which could sway it one way or the other (leggings of the wanton spellcaster for instance are, in my opinion, much better than mortal arrogance, if you can remove the hit from some where elsem also factor in set bonuses etc, you definitly gain much more than that on your gear set from the BiS. Zak if you have a better way of seeing that please let me know.
You wouldn't have to use the T7 leggings to maintain the T7 4pc bonus making it possible to maintain the bonus while still using the Mortal Arrogance or Wanton Spellcaster leggings (depending on how much hit you need).
Supplicum: Your numbers are way off - and I don't know how you can think just looking at spell damage is useful at all.
First of all, given that we life tap every 20 seconds, 4t7 should be worth at a minimum (300*0.3)/2+300*0.2 = 105 SP. That's assuming no demonic aegis.
Then it's just a matter of feeding the scaling factors for your spec into something like lootrank: Here's an example for affliction.
This shows that the sum of the two greatest upgrades from T7 represents about 65 DPS, much less than the 105 DPS cut-off established above. And that's not even accounting for the fact that you can take the greatest upgrade without breaking 4-piece - the sum of the second-greatest and third-greatest upgrades represents only about 47.5 DPS, meaning 4t7 is by far the best choice in 3.1.
This last value, incidentally, is very close to the number you'd get if you removed the LT glyph from my initial equation: 300*0.3/2 = 45. Hence why I'd tend to leave the choice up to personal preference in 3.0.9.
I've built an excel spreadsheet utilizing the Solver addon to help me determine the optimal gear given the scaling factors of 0/40/31 from the Simulationcraft thread and certain parameters such as reaching the hit cap. The result of this excel model and testing versus keeping 4pcT7 and going all best-in-slot in Simulationcraft shows that at the moment this is the ideal gear setup:
This may vary depending on whether or not you have a draeni in the raid but I'm horde so I didn't factor that in. The 4pcT7 and new Lifetap Glyph have amazing synergy and will actually net higher DPS from Simulationcraft until you're able to get your hands on 2pcT8 and other Ulduar items but this may change as I haven't run Simulationcraft with the new nerfs to Conflag scaling through the set bonus and glyph bonus. Needless to say that the new Lifetap Glyph and 4pcT7 are an extremely potent combination, almost too good in my eyes as they could very well negate most of the Ulduar gear unless you get best in slot for everything from there.
Sorry, zakk, I made an ass of my self with those numbers, you are right for lifetap
My issue comes into how do we factor in hit, Hit doesn't scale past cap, and we can't assume that we would be below cap if we did/didn't have those items, because it totally sways site like lootrank.
Using this method (which is as wrong as the other one is as well, but a different way of looking at it I suppose) and assuming helm is automatically going to go. you end up with the 107dps gain from switching pants and shoulders.
The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.
Sorry, zakk, I made an ass of my self with those numbers, you are right for lifetap
My issue comes into how do we factor in hit, Hit doesn't scale past cap, and we can't assume that we would be below cap if we did/didn't have those items, because it totally sways site like lootrank.
Using this method (which is as wrong as the other one is as well, but a different way of looking at it I suppose) and assuming helm is automatically going to go. you end up with the 107dps gain from switching pants and shoulders.
The spreadsheet I made is the same as loot rank using the method of hit = 0. However the real power in it is using the Solver addon that allows me to set constraints and parameters which eventually yield the optimal gear setup. For instance I'll set a constraint that the sum of all the gear's hit rating must be greater than or equal to 356 (14% hit is 368 and subtract 12 for Icewalker). Solver also designates adjustable cells that are binary so what the addon is doing is calculating every single possible combination of gear that's above the hit cap given my scale factors. Once it is finished running it gives me the maximum item value given my constraints such as reaching at least 356 hit rating.
The spreadsheet I made is the same as loot rank using the method of hit = 0. However the real power in it is using the Solver addon that allows me to set constraints and parameters which eventually yield the optimal gear setup. For instance I'll set a constraint that the sum of all the gear's hit rating must be greater than or equal to 356 (14% hit is 368 and subtract 12 for Icewalker). Solver also designates adjustable cells that are binary so what the addon is doing is calculating every single possible combination of gear that's above the hit cap given my scale factors. Once it is finished running it gives me the maximum item value given my constraints such as reaching at least 356 hit rating.
If possible can you please host that spreadsheet somewhere?
03/20/09, 12:01 PM
Similar Threads
