SimulationCraft for Warlocks (4.0.3a numbers at 80 and 85) - Page 105

• Zakalwe · 05/24/09, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by 32103940

You are confused at this point. First of all you must take note that simcraft models a tank and spank fight with 0 movement. Even if you can pull off some sick maneuvres during the gcds of all your lifetaps and instant casts, your dps wont increase. You simply played a movement fight like a tank and spank.

This skill only allows you to stay close to theoretical maximum dps, which is a value that simcraft will return on its simulations.

You do not 'gain' a free gcd by tapping on the move. The only thing you gained was a small window to move yourself around without losing dps since that window cant be used for anything else. [..]

You're missing his point. He's saying the real-world value of spirit is probably less than what simcraft says it is. This is entirely correct, because spirit is less valuable in a movement fight (i.e. real-world raiding) than in a tank-and-spank fight (i.e. simcraft).

EDIT: I read your post again and I'm no longer sure if you're missing the point or if you're just wrong, so I'll elaborate: Spirit is less valuable in a movement fight because you can fit life taps into parts of the fight where you can't do any other DPS. This means you waste less DPS time life tapping, which means it matters less how much mana each life tap returns. In the most extreme example there's enough movement that you'll never waste any DPS time life tapping at all, in which case spirit is worth exactly the 42.9% of spell power obtained through fel armor.

argana · 05/24/09, 11:21 AM

Zakalwe has already helpfully pointed out the meaning of my post so I don't need to respond to 32103940, too.

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I'll elaborate: Spirit is less [edited by Argana: I think a typo] valuable in a movement fight because you can fit life taps into parts of the fight where you can't do any other DPS. This means you waste less DPS time life tapping, which means it matters less how much mana each life tap returns. In the most extreme example there's enough movement that you'll never waste any DPS time life tapping at all, in which case spirit is worth exactly the 42.9% of spell power obtained through fel armor.

Indeed. This is exactly the point. I've just replied to correct the slight typo above, and also to add that you don't need there to be much movement at all in a fight for you to get the 42.9% figure. The scale factor isn't a measure of the value of each point of 'your total spirit' towards your final dps, but a measure of the benefit at current gear level of more points, so for any spec with a small number of Life Taps you'll get no benefit (above 42.9%) for quite a large addition of spirit and then a sudden jump to allow one extra GCD. Bear in mind though that once any movement is available you can probably gain that extra GCD yourself by doing a well timed Life Tap.

The key idea here is that while the 42.9% of spirit to totally pure dps gain, you can easily identify the extra benefit that simcraft finds as thanks to bigger Life Taps and you may like to ignore that for any fight with movement.

tkoreaper · 05/24/09, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Reuben

Found it hard to get as much haste as i'd prefer while maintaining 14% hit and 4pcT8, but this is what I came up with:

chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

This is what I got. It has more than 100 spell power than yours.
chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

Or you can look at this one which uses Reckless gems instead of Runed.
chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

Injez · 05/24/09, 11:38 PM

If we will try to use DG in 0/13/58...

...it should be better

But when we have DG, we don't need talents for Imp. So, we can take 3 points from Empowered Imp and put them to Suppression and wear non-hit Gear.

But DPS increasing too small, if not to forget abot 30 min cooldown for DG.
So, or i will have two deep-destro specs in dual set, or i will run in 0/13/58 with Imp and DG.

Cempa · 05/25/09, 2:01 AM

Originally Posted by tkoreaper

This is what I got. It has more than 100 spell power than yours.
chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

Or you can look at this one which uses Reckless gems instead of Runed.
chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

After review of the work Warlocomotif did regarding trinkets Trinket Discussion below is the BiS: chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

Bessa · 05/25/09, 8:06 AM

Originally Posted by Injez

If we will try to use DG in 0/13/58...

...it should be better

But when we have DG, we don't need talents for Imp. So, we can take 3 points from Empowered Imp and put them to Suppression and wear non-hit Gear.

But DPS increasing too small, if not to forget abot 30 min cooldown for DG.
So, or i will have two deep-destro specs in dual set, or i will run in 0/13/58 with Imp and DG.

I think i'd be inclined to stick with 0/13/58, you have to account for the time that DG will be dead/on cooldown or fights like Yogg-Saron where you cant really use it and i'd rather have another pet that could compete rather than drop Improved Imp. I wouldnt mind picking up full Destructive Reach over 3/3 Imp' Imp, im already having threat issues with the imp out, adding DG i can see myself running into problems.

tkoreaper · 05/25/09, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by Cempa

After review of the work Warlocomotif did regarding trinkets Trinket Discussion below is the BiS: chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

You might want to rework those JC gems because they are getting nerfed. They will no longer be prismatic in the next patch. So based on the way that you have them set, your meta isn't active.

EDIT:
After some work, I've come to the conclusion that yours isn't quite as good as the one I mentioned previously.
First of all, I fixed your JC gems and activated the meta on your character. The changes can be seen here:chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

I also added JC gems to mine and swapped out the cloak enchant for the haste. It had Lightweave embroidery before. Those changes can be seen here:chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

Now, based on the stats values for 0/13/58 I determined the DPS of each of the character sheets WITHOUT the trinkets.

Warlock_T8_00_13_58 Sta=0.00 Int=0.56 Spi=0.75 SP=1.55 Hit=3.27 Crit=1.01 Haste=1.52

First, here is my character:
SP = 3571.2
Crit = 528.23
Haste = 810.16
Spirit = 411
Int = 578.48
Total = 5899.07

Now, yours:
SP = 3596
Crit = 559.55
Haste = 718.96
Spirit = 435.75
Int = 575.68
Total = 5785.94

DPS value of trinkets based of of this post:Trinket Discussion
Flare of the Heavens = 341.3
Illustration of the Dragon Soul = 310
Living Flame = 237.2

DPS Values w/Trinkets:
Mine: 6477.57
Yours: 6437.27

Kilroggmama · 05/25/09, 8:32 AM

Originally Posted by Bessa

I wouldnt mind picking up full Destructive Reach over 3/3 Imp' Imp, im already having threat issues with the imp out, adding DG i can see myself running into problems.

The pet threat does not affect your personal threat on a target, they are separate.

Injez · 05/25/09, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bessa

adding DG i can see myself running into problems.

Imp is 9% of total damage - your threat is 91% of total.
DG is 13% of total damage - your threat is 87% of total.

nenad · 05/25/09, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by argana

The key idea here is that while the 42.9% of spirit to totally pure dps gain, you can easily identify the extra benefit that simcraft finds as thanks to bigger Life Taps and you may like to ignore that for any fight with movement.

You are correct that simcraft will value SPI both because of +dmg and due to saved time for mana (ie less LT).

But that should not be so big influence, and also if you want to see value of SPI without its mana effect, you could set in simcraft file:

infinite_mana=1

BTW, when I run simulation for 0_13_58 on latest simulator build (normalized_rng=1, iterations=1000), I get these numbers:

//infinite_mana=0
Warlock_T8_00_13_58 Int=0.52 Spi=0.67 SP=1.56 Hit=3.26 Crit=1.01 Haste=1.27 Lag=6.32
//infinite_mana=1
Warlock_T8_00_13_58 Int=0.31 Spi=0.68 SP=1.58 Hit=3.19 Crit=1.04 Haste=1.43 Lag=7.03

In both cases, SPI/SP ~ 43%

It is interesting that 0_13_58 was build where SPI gained least from mana - when I used "infinite_mana=1" i got more noticeable reduction to SPI value for afflic and demo than for destro.

Other two changed values with infinite mana for 0_13_58 are INT (lowered value since mana pool is not important ), and Haste (increased value since number of LT is reduced, and haste was not very useful for LTs)

Menestheus · 05/25/09, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Injez

Imp is 9% of total damage - your threat is 91% of total.
DG is 13% of total damage - your threat is 87% of total.

It's kind of misleading to state that because the total damages are different between the two situations.

However, because when you are using the Doomguard you lose out on Empowered Imp your personal threat will be lower than it would be with the Imp. This is in spite of your higher overall DPS.

Menestheus · 05/26/09, 6:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kazenoyoukai

Why is Shadowburn included in the 3/13/55 spec? Based on spellpower coefficient and it's base damage, it isn't worth its DPCT below about 1.4k BUFFED spellpower. So basically, if you're raiding at level 70 in kara-level gear it's worth it. Why is it in this spec instead of other choices?

Not to defend Shadowburn (because you are right, it's terrible) but what single talent point can you pick up instead that benefits you at all?

Heeno · 05/26/09, 6:51 AM

Why is Shadowburn included in the 3/13/55 spec? Based on spellpower coefficient and it's base damage, it isn't worth its DPCT below about 1.4k BUFFED spellpower. So basically, if you're raiding at level 70 in kara-level gear it's worth it. Why is it in this spec instead of other choices?

With 3/13/55, you end up with one extra point after taking all of the required talents. That point has no effect on the simulation results, there are no more potential areas of dps increase available. It can be placed in a number of areas whether it be shadowburn, shadowfury, etc. Shadowburn can be useful because you can cast it while on the move, at the cost of shards.

Injez · 05/26/09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kilroggmama

Huh? It doesn't matter if your pet does exactly the same DPS as you do and you do 50% of "total" DPS... the pet threat doesn't matter when it comes to pulling aggro for you. Only your threat vs the tank counts, not your pet.

Empored Imp does affect your DPS slightly, though.

Originally Posted by Menestheus

It's kind of misleading to state that because the total damages are different between the two situations.

Ohh.. When you use DG, your own DPS going slightly down (no more Empowered Imp procs), and your threat too. Total DPS will be higher with DG, but only because DG's DPS better, not your. So, if threat is an issue for you (and for me), DG will help you.

Originally Posted by Kazenoyoukai

Why is Shadowburn included in the 3/13/55 spec? Based on spellpower coefficient and it's base damage, it isn't worth its DPCT below about 1.4k BUFFED spellpower. So basically, if you're raiding at level 70 in kara-level gear it's worth it. Why is it in this spec instead of other choices?

Shadowfury is better and much more useful.

molson · 05/26/09, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Injez

Shadowfury is better and much more useful.

I think this would probably be a case of YMMV, both Shadowburn and Shadowfury have their niche uses in Ulduar, but I think it really comes down to personal preference and as it has no effect on simcraft results, should probably be left as such as far as this thread is concerned.