SimulationCraft for Warlocks (4.0.3a numbers at 80 and 85) - Page 12

Naforce · 02/28/09, 7:50 AM

Deleted.

Bessa · 02/28/09, 7:52 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I think destro's problem is that it's got all its best talents in the first half of the tree. Other trees can easily dip into destro and get a lot of good stuff, but if you decide to go deep in destro you're left with 18-20 points and nothing good to do with them.

Exactly, its rather worrying that most other specs rely on Destro talents to be competative and can't do so off they're own back. If anything is changed <20 points in destro, all other specs would see a big drop. Let's pray for nothing to happen.

• Zakalwe · 02/28/09, 7:56 AM

You're using the melee hit rating conversion - for spell hit it's 26.23. All the hit-capped profiles are doing is trading 75 crit rating for 75 hit rating - this is shown in the profile definitions in my original post.

Naforce · 02/28/09, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

You're using the melee hit rating conversion - for spell hit it's 26.23. All the hit-capped profiles are doing is trading 75 crit rating for 75 hit rating - this is shown in the profile definitions in my original post.

I was indeed. Very stupid of me. Yet why do that trade? Feels like the specs actually spending points on 3% hit doesn't gain as much as they should. The trade-off should be for a mix of haste/spellpower or crit/spellpower, not just one of the 3. Let's say I have gemmed 81 hit rating (3 rigid dragons eye = 81 hit rating), and say I'm going to use 5/13/53. I would surely gem 96 spellpower in the same places. I believe using that as the optimum exchange and a mix of crit/sp or haste/sp as a general exchange would mean a more fair dps output. Even though it's not 10000dps difference, it sure is a little change between 75 crit and 100 sp or whatever you might get out of not gearing away hit for crit.

• Zakalwe · 02/28/09, 8:19 AM

Just to elaborate on the hit rating issue: The default simulationcraft gear profiles are set up assuming 3% hit from talents and 3% hit from raid buffs. If a certain spec doesn't have those 3% hit from talents, they need to pick up an extra 3% from gear without changing the total iLvl cost. I've chosen to do that by sacrificing crit, but I could have done it by sacrificing something even less useful, like int. I chose crit beacuse it seems a pretty realistic stat to be able to shift around.

Keep in mind that we're talking about best-in-slot gear here. At least for pre-3.1 gear, if you had the best gear you would never be gemming for hit even if you needed 14% from gear, so your gemming argument is moot. And more generally, since spell power is so valuable, top gear sets with 14% hit and top gear sets with 11% hit will tend to have about the same amount of spell power.

Naforce · 02/28/09, 8:56 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Just to elaborate on the hit rating issue: The default simulationcraft gear profiles are set up assuming 3% hit from talents and 3% hit from raid buffs. If a certain spec doesn't have those 3% hit from talents, they need to pick up an extra 3% from gear without changing the total iLvl cost. I've chosen to do that by sacrificing crit, but I could have done it by sacrificing something even less useful, like int. I chose crit beacuse it seems a pretty realistic stat to be able to shift around.

Keep in mind that we're talking about best-in-slot gear here. At least for pre-3.1 gear, if you had the best gear you would never be gemming for hit even if you needed 14% from gear, so your gemming argument is moot. And more generally, since spell power is so valuable, top gear sets with 14% hit and top gear sets with 11% hit will tend to have about the same amount of spell power.

I can't agree with those stats being all best-in-slots. Look at me. I have barely any best-in-slots, yet i still have over 2k spellpower, I am ally so I get the draenei buff meaning 4% hit from raid. I can directly say that the turning tide with the best sp enchant would grant me an extra +65 spellpower. There are lots of things i can upgrade to; leggings of the wanton spellcaster and the helm from malygos25, the circle of polarity, surplus limb, rings, trinkets and so on. I just don't see how those stats would be even close to all best-in-slot gear. They are more like my stats, + something here, - something there, all in all not much better at all from my current stats. And I am far from having all best-in-slots.

Besides, the gemming argument just proved the stat exchange. Also, crit being the talent we gain the least from, we would rather choose haste-gear when not gearing for hit.

Just as a conclusion, my issue is based in that the stats seem too low. Seeing as all the specs scale differently with stats, that might change things.

botafuco · 02/28/09, 9:34 AM

Excuse me for asking, but where can I download the latest release for the simcraft? I checked simulationcraft - Google Code where I can see the updates but I can't seem to find a way to get the latest release.

Many thanks.

Warlocomotif · 02/28/09, 9:38 AM

I tend to agree here, and this is actually one of my gripes with Simcraft;
No sane Warlock should have 500 crit and 500 haste, because it simply is far from ideal. Crit isn't a good enough stat to have as much of as you have haste. In fact for most specs it'd be more reasonable to gear for 500 spirit than for 500 crit.

*perhaps* it could be made so that Simcraft would automatically gear slightly towards the scale factors of each spec.
Something along the lines of; simcraft checks the scale factors on default caster_T7, simcraft takes an average stat value and multiplies each stat in the caster_T7 with each stat's value relative to the average stat value.
This would take much longer to parse but could give some slightly more accurate/interesting results.

Teroy · 02/28/09, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Warlocomotif

I tend to agree here, and this is actually one of my gripes with Simcraft;
No sane Warlock should have 500 crit and 500 haste, because it simply is far from ideal. Crit isn't a good enough stat to have as much of as you have haste. In fact for most specs it'd be more reasonable to gear for 500 spirit than for 500 crit.

*perhaps* it could be made so that Simcraft would automatically gear slightly towards the scale factors of each spec.
Something along the lines of; simcraft checks the scale factors on default caster_T7, simcraft takes an average stat value and multiplies each stat in the caster_T7 with each stat's value relative to the average stat value.
This would take much longer to parse but could give some slightly more accurate/interesting results.

It is very easy in simcraft to go into the base gear file and set it up to run the sims how ever you like. I set it up with my current gear so I get acurate readings for myself and to see what my potential DPS is in my current gearing. It requires all of 10 min on your part if that to plunk in your own numbers.

Azazael77 · 02/28/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

One thing to keep in mind regarding the Decimation weaving is that it assumes a certain range from the boss, meaning you can't do it during Metamorphosis if you also want to be using Immolation, which the sim doesn't currently account for. So the Meta spec is being slightly overvalued in the currently posted results.

In the testing I've done, at point-blank range the travel time of Shadow Bolt is short enough that you can maintain a SB - SF - SB - SF rotation easier than a SB - SB - SF - SF rotation at max range. There are many fights where this wouldn't be practical, but it does seem to work.

I've also been working with a 'selfish' Meta spec that drops Demon Pact for more personal DPS:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...0&version=9626

There are a 2 points in Demo that could move around to somewhere potentially better, but I'd be curious if someone who's Simcraft-Fu is greater than mine could run it through. It's definitely a personal DPS boost over the 0/56/15 spec that's been worked with so far, I wonder if it picks up enough juice to put it ahead of 0/41/30.

• Zakalwe · 02/28/09, 10:25 AM

I can certainly agree that the default values in Caster_T7_Base_Gear may be less than perfect values for any warlock. Of course the "ideal" solution would be to go through every single spec and work out what the best gear set would be and use those values. There's nothing stopping people from doing that - Simulationcraft supports individual gear values for each actor.

I don't have that sort of time on my hands though, and I really doubt it would make a significant difference in the context of what I'm trying to do with this thread.

Teroy · 02/28/09, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I can certainly agree that the default values in Caster_T7_Base_Gear may be less than perfect values for any warlock. Of course the "ideal" solution would be to go through every single spec and work out what the best gear set would be and use those values. There's nothing stopping people from doing that - Simulationcraft supports individual gear values for each actor.

I don't have that sort of time on my hands though, and I really doubt it would make a significant difference in the context of what I'm trying to do with this thread.

Is there any way to access the current revision so we can run our own numbers. I see on the site it's up to r1599 but only simcraft-r1527-windows.zip is available for download. At least as far as I can see.

Edit.

Found it simulationcraft - Revision 1599: /trunk

Just not in a neat little package but does the trick just fine

• Zakalwe · 02/28/09, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Azazael77

In the testing I've done, at point-blank range the travel time of Shadow Bolt is short enough that you can maintain a SB - SF - SB - SF rotation easier than a SB - SB - SF - SF rotation at max range. There are many fights where this wouldn't be practical, but it does seem to work.

Thanks for the input. It would probably take a bit of work to accurately model all of the range issues involved here, but the fact that they can get a 1/1 weaving going while in immolation range makes me feel better about leaving things the way they are right now. It means the meta specs aren't being overvalued after all.

Originally Posted by Azazael77

I've also been working with a 'selfish' Meta spec that drops Demon Pact for more personal DPS:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...0&version=9626

There are a 2 points in Demo that could move around to somewhere potentially better, but I'd be curious if someone who's Simcraft-Fu is greater than mine could run it through. It's definitely a personal DPS boost over the 0/56/15 spec that's been worked with so far, I wonder if it picks up enough juice to put it ahead of 0/41/30.

Good call - I've updated the original post with the best personal DPS meta spec I could find.

The update also includes some other meta-related changes: It turns out I hadn't implemented the meta glyph properly, and that's actually better than the life tap glyph. And meta locks are better off dropping corruption and immolate once decimation kicks in.

Naforce · 02/28/09, 12:54 PM

I see you still go for 2 points in master summoner instead of 1 point MS and 1 point Mana Feed. Try that instead, just to make sure it's correct.

exzarkun · 02/28/09, 1:01 PM

In the 3/52/16 spec, I noticed you tossed a point into aftermath rather than mana feed. In my demo experience mana feed has been pretty much required. Wondering if there is a method to the madness there Zak.