SimulationCraft for Warlocks (4.0.3a numbers at 80 and 85) - Page 151

Evidicus · 12/02/09, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Woony

From what i've heard, the imp does outdps the Felguard in Heroics for example, but in a 25 man raid with full meele buffs & debuffs the Felguard does more dps than the imp.

True, provided you manage to keep the Felguard alive. Even with Fel Domination, if you have to summon a new one during the fight the pet buffs you've lost will really hurt your DPS. I haven't heard much about how "pet friendly" Icecrown encounters are yet, but working to keep your Felguard alive means time spent on active pet management. Time spent there is time not spent on casting and moving and focused on your own DPS.

The benefit of the Imp is that he is essentially a fire and forget pet in most situations (relative to a Felguard at least). With the buffs the Imp is getting, he may be worth the tradeoff if it means less distraction for you and you manage to keep him alive for the whole fight.

I think the real concern for a Imp based Demo build is the lack of ISB, which may or may not be an issue if you aren't the only Warlock in your raid or if your Mages haven't realized yet that Scorch is a DPS loss for them.

~Thalia~ · 12/02/09, 8:51 AM

The felguard is mostly fire and forget too on everything but a few fights. The only ones that come to mind where keeping it alive is\was *difficult* are : Sartharion 3D, Yogg-saron P2 (just put him on corruptors and constrictors), Northrend beats (worm phase if your tank pathing force him to stay in the poison). Mimiron HM was a real pain though, but your imp would have suffered too.
That said, I don't know what ICC fights will look like. What hurts Demonology dps the most is not your pet diying, it's fights where you get buffs and your pet don't (Thaddius, Horreb, Hodir, Vezaxx, Twins)

Scrufola · 12/03/09, 7:01 AM

With patch 3.3, according to the current SimulationCraft output, the meta spec will still be about 400-600 dps behind affliction or destruction. But I think the following is interesting:

When I run SimulationCraft (rev 4047 with patch=3.3.0) with optimal raid I get the following DPS.

DPS Ranking:
  40237 100.0%  Raid
  10375  25.8%  Warlock_T9_55_00_16
  10114  25.1%  Warlock_T9_03_13_55
  10104  25.1%  Warlock_T9_00_13_58
   9694  24.1%  Warlock_T9_00_56_15

After removing the Demonic Pact warlock from the run (SimulationCraft defaults to ToW if no Demonic Pact warlock is in the raid) I get the following numbers:

DPS Ranking:
  29482 100.0%  Raid
  10032  34.0%  Warlock_T9_55_00_16
   9765  33.1%  Warlock_T9_03_13_55
   9720  32.9%  Warlock_T9_00_13_58

The damage of destruction warlock with no Demonic Pact warlock in the raid is about the same as the damage of a Demoic Pact itself.

There is no longer a "tax" you pay to boost your raid. You will just boost all other casters for free (but not yourself above what your output would be if you would play destruction).

Edit: I've used patch=3.3.0 in Simulationcraft

Originally Posted by Amonette

Not to mention the mage set is identical to ours on every stat. Can these still be placeholders at this late stage?

The head is not according to mmo-champion:

Dark Coven Hood - Items - Sigrie
Bloodmage Hood - Items - Sigrie

Alkii · 12/03/09, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Scrufola

The damage of destruction warlock with no Demonic Pact warlock in the raid is about the same as the damage of a Demoic Pact itself.

There is no longer a "tax" you pay to boost your raid. You will just boost all other casters for free (but not yourself above what your output would be if you would play destruction).

I noticed this same thing as well while testing on PTR with both dummies and raids. I noticed Affliction being a little lower than I expected on some of the encounters bringing them all within about 100 DPS of each other. Again, this was only from personal testing and is not to be taken as hard evidence of where Locks stand in 3.3.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up and I can't seem to find it anywhere, but is the SIM taking into account the 5% personal increase from Demonic Pact or am I missing something?

dedmonwakeen · 12/03/09, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Alkii

I'm not sure if this has been brought up and I can't seem to find it anywhere, but is the SIM taking into account the 5% personal increase from Demonic Pact or am I missing something?

Yes, but only when patch=3.3.0

Shelak · 12/05/09, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by lilsteele

@Lordobsidian

Nice result. I discussed the same spec elsewhere yesterday, though I didn't consider taking the next step and drop that point in backlash to get one more point in unholy power.

Anyways, here are my results with the "strong imp spec" (Profiler - Wowhead) for 3.2 and 3.3 mechanics, using simcraft v322.7:

I calculated the scale factors to see if one of the specs will scale better (3.3 mechanics, 10k iterations), but there is no clear trend:

Itemization and loosing the 2pc T9 bonus will probably work in favor of the ISL spec for Icecrown gear.

Hope you find this useful.

How close are those numbers compared to current fights? I´m only close to 7k so I wonder if those numbers above are really archievable.

dedmonwakeen · 12/06/09, 5:26 PM

Any questions/comments related to specific SimC output need to also include a reference to the Warlock profile driving the sim.

In the future I'll make sure that the GUI drops a complete profile. For now, please include an Armory/Wowhead link.

Most questions are in the area of scale factors. If you are uncertain about the results for a couple stats, the easiest thing to do is to plot that stat. (with scale factor gen off to speed things up)

Alternatively, run the sim once without scale factors or plotting to get a simple baseline (use 10k iterations). Then run it a second time, increasing one stat by ~100. The easiest way to do this is to simply put enchant_STATNAME on the cmd line.

Kurrem: In your case, you can plot SP and Haste. Or you can put enchant_haste_rating=100 on the command line and compare the baseline results tab against the +100 haste tab. Look for tick counts and cast counts, etc.

Warlocomotif · 12/06/09, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kurremkarmerruk

Hello,
I have just started using the simcraft software, trying to learn how to use it primarily for obtaining scaling factors. I am using the GUI, so it should be pretty straightforward to set up, but I keep getting scaling factors that tell me that haste is better than spell power. I am pretty sure that cannot be correct, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Here are the scaling factors I'm getting:

Sta Int Spi SP Hit Crit Haste
Scale Factors 0.0000 0.2771 0.8690 1.3900 0.6616 0.7603 1.5915

For the record, I have 387 haste unbuffed, which I don't think is terribly low.

Having any amount of any stat increases the value of the other stats.

For example: You cast 100 spells and you crit 0 of them, which results in "100%" damage. If you get 5% haste then that means you just 5 extra spells. Now lets say you cast 100 spells and crit 20% of them, if you add 5% haste then you'll get 5 extra spell casts, however on average 1 of them will also crit now. Result? The value of haste is 20% higher now because you gained 20% crit.

This is a very over simplified example, in the real world it's not entirely as simple, but the general principle still holds true; the more you have of stat x, the more valueable stat y and z become.

You have quite a lot of spellpower and spirit, and a fairly healthy amount of crit- however you have vvery little haste. Result: Haste becomes very valueable relative to your other stats.

scaffold · 12/06/09, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Most questions are in the area of scale factors. If you are uncertain about the results for a couple stats, the easiest thing to do is to plot that stat. (with scale factor gen off to speed things up)

While we are at the topic of plotting - I downloaded the latest GUI simcraft a few days ago and immediately noticed that my haste scaling went from ~1.0 to ~0,7 compared to the release I downloaded a few weeks earlier. Pretty drastic change.
But what's even more puzzling is the haste scaling curve. At -20, 0 and +60 it has exactly the same value. Is it the patchwerk style fight and the rotation side effect? How can a 80 haste gain equal zero DPS increase?

dedmonwakeen · 12/06/09, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by scaffold

While we are at the topic of plotting - I downloaded the latest GUI simcraft a few days ago and immediately noticed that my haste scaling went from ~1.0 to ~0,7 compared to the release I downloaded a few weeks earlier. Pretty drastic change.
But what's even more puzzling is the haste scaling curve. At -20, 0 and +60 it has exactly the same value. Is it the patchwerk style fight and the rotation side effect? How can a 80 haste gain equal zero DPS increase?

The biggest change was to make strict_gcd_queue=1 the default behavior which does not allow queuing when cast_time+queue_lag is less than gcd+gcd_lag. It essentially lowers the haste cap. It was hidden among the release notes (RecentUpdates) and I should have made it more obvious.

The "flat spot" on the haste curve could be due to the fact that the "Latency = Low" option makes for VERY low lag values. Low lag values do not give RNG enough room to smooth out the edge-conditions that occur when managing CD and DoT-refresh conflicts. An undocumented feature is to vary the fight length by a specified percentage: Put vary_combat_length=0.10 in Overrides and the sim will do a spectrum +/- 5% of the given fight length.

Try some experiments and if you still feel SimC is behaving contrary to your intuition, please feel free to open an Issue. (with a link to your profile!)

Evyle · 12/07/09, 2:38 PM

Would it be possible to inclue the stat weights on the front page post as they have been in the past. It would be more accurate for me to run the sim myself, but my free time to read and learn from these message boards is often at work during break (and I can't install anything on to the work computers).

Jaradakar · 12/08/09, 2:35 AM

Originally Posted by Casstor

The 0/56/15_MC build still appears to not be using Quick Decay. Did someone else find that using this glyph over meta did not increase dps?

Originally Posted by Warlocomotif

Most people who tried it found it be a DPS increase, its just not been updated on the first page yet.

So I'm thinking of going back to demo 00/56/15 spec.

What are the most optimal Glyphs for this spec?

Felguard?
Metamorphosis?
Quick Decay?
Life Tap?

Personally I hate the life tap glyph -- forced to LT every 40s just does not feel optimal to me. I'd rather avoid it, if the dps difference is fairly minor.

Hence I'm hoping the answer is Felguard, Meta and Quick Decay.

Mystearica · 12/08/09, 2:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jaradakar

So I'm thinking of going back to demo 00/56/15 spec.

What are the most optimal Glyphs for this spec?

Felguard?
Metamorphosis?
Quick Decay?
Life Tap?

Personally I hate the life tap glyph -- forced to LT every 40s just does not feel optimal to me. I'd rather avoid it, if the dps difference is fairly minor.

Hence I'm hoping the answer is Felguard, Meta and Quick Decay.

If Quick Decay is indeed better than Meta - FG, QD, LT.

You forget that GoLT now works with Demonic Pact, the only reason to be 0/56/15.

~Thalia~ · 12/08/09, 3:15 AM

The issues have been discussed in the demonology thread.

Glyph of quick decay turns out to be slightly superior than glyph of meta, glyph of felguard and glyph of life tap are not to be replaced.

I've been running Demonic empowerement vs Improved demonic tactics 3/3 too, and DE is the winner by a small margin.

Maybe the OP could be updated on these points.

RagingRaven · 12/08/09, 5:42 AM

Originally Posted by ~Thalia~

The issues have been discussed in the demonology thread.

Glyph of quick decay turns out to be slightly superior than glyph of meta, glyph of felguard and glyph of life tap are not to be replaced.

I've been running Demonic empowerement vs Improved demonic tactics 3/3 too, and DE is the winner by a small margin.

Maybe the OP could be updated on these points.

I think it maybe a good idea to update the OP overall, there has been quite a few changes that haven't been updated on the OP yet, like the Glyph of Quick Decay, the "Strong imp spec" and if possible the T10 gear/bonusses.
And as somebody asked before me:

Originally Posted by Evyle

Would it be possible to inclue the stat weights on the front page post as they have been in the past. It would be more accurate for me to run the sim myself, but my free time to read and learn from these message boards is often at work during break (and I can't install anything on to the work computers).

If this is possible I, and I think a lot of other people, would be very gratefull, as it helps in choosing a (new) spec for 3.3 even though it seems they are all so close to eachother now that it will probably come down to personal preference.

P.S.

Originally Posted by Larynda

Whats about "Enchant Weapon - Black Magic"?

"This enchantment now sometimes increases haste rating for the caster rather than inflicting the caster’s target with a
damage-over-time effect. It is also now triggered by landing any harmful spell rather than inflicting damage with a spell.

Is this enchant better then the spellpower enchant?

I think it's still worse than the spellpower enchant seeing as spellpower has a higher value than haste, but I guess it depends on the amount of haste and the amount of times it procs.
Can anybody confirm it is still worse ?