Are you really certain of that? 20% extra damage from the imp gives me a sweet 140dps increase. Immo is about the same I think, so is the glyph of life tap really better?
If you read page 24 of this thread simcraft showed the lifetap glyph to be better then the imp glyph. Now this really depends on your gear because the LT glyph scales with your spirit so if you have low spirit the imp glyph would probly be better until you get a high amount of spirit.
Looks like Meta ruin if starting to fall very far behind now, which is really a shame that they'll hopefully fix (Best way to fix it would probably be adding a personal DPS benefit to Demonic pact), I think a demonic pact spec behind somewhat behind is perfectly acceptable, but 600 DPS behind is really getting to a point where it's no longer really reasonable.
As stated previously, it seems that making haunt,debuff=0 is a dps increase. I got it in simulations with my own gear as well. Can you update the post with this zak unless you find something different?
Can't see this change going live, both for pvp (7k instant cast) and pve purposes.
Destro damage is simply really high at the moment.
Deep destro dmg is fine where it is, Demo destro hybrids are a bit out of control. Thats the problem, you have 2 trees with the best points in the top 1/2 -> 2/3 of the tree leading to amazing hybrid builds.
Move any one major talent deeper down the tree, like emberstorm or Demonic Knowledge and you vritually break these specs. It's a simple answer. Either you are deep destro or deep demo, but not halfway in both getting the best talents from both worlds.
EDIT
PVP in bg's and such yea this is pretty nasty, In decent arena interupt+dispel makes this less and less of a threat ad din resi and lack of crit and you have your own problems. Though the potential is High for a lot of burst, the same can be said for many classes like rogues or arcane mages. If the ball is set in motion, it can be unstoppable. Thats the difference between a good arena team and a bad one. The good one keeps the ball in place the bad ones let the ball get up to speed and the game ends too fast.
The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.
In the 0/41/30 build I found that if you take a point out of Demonic Tactics, and put it into Molten Core the dps went up significantly in simulationcraft. It might be worth running that change and posting it if you get a higher dps as well.
In the 0/40/31 build the same change could be made as well. I haven't run this change yet, but it seems that if the imp build should benefit at least as much, if not more from the added chance of increased fire damage from Molten Core.
I performed tests showing 2/3 MC was optimal before, but that was while we had the mage crit buff at 5%. Now we've reverted it to 10% because that's still what it is on the PTR. The result is that crit is less valuable across the board, and that point in DT becomes less valuable than the point in MC.
I can't replicate your results showing 3/3 MC being better than 3/5 DT for 0/41/30 - 2/3 MC and 3/5 DT beats 3/3 MC and 2/5 DT by 10-15 DPS. I did update the 0/40/31 profile, though. I also changed the life tap glyph to the behavior currently seen on the PTR (40% of spirit as SP, dynamically updated, meaning it synergizes very well with 4-piece T7). OP has been updated with the results of these changes.
I performed tests showing 2/3 MC was optimal before, but that was while we had the mage crit buff at 5%. Now we've reverted it to 10% because that's still what it is on the PTR. The result is that crit is less valuable across the board, and that point in DT becomes less valuable than the point in MC.
The latest patch notes for the PTR has mages critbuff nerfed to 5% so I think that is what we can assume.
Also, I may have missed on this but I'm still going to ask: Do you assume useage of +3% crit dmg meta in your calculations (atleast for the destro builds)?
Also, could you please find out with the newest patch notes which one of imp and immolate glyph that will be the most efficient one for 0/40/31? I'm guessing since conflagrate doesn't scale of immo glyph they should be very equal. I don't really wan't to rely on glyph of life tap, since most fights has you lifetapping 6 times in a row to regain a lot of mana when you can't attack the boss. Not all fights are PW, so atleast I try to use my life taps when necessary and when I'm running away from things and similiar.
The latest patch notes for the PTR has mages critbuff nerfed to 5% so I think that is what we can assume.
Yeah, my mistake, it had actually been changed back to 5% again in simcraft already, before I said what I did. My guess is his tests were done during the short window this week during which simcraft had it at 10%.
So I have just started playing with running simcraft myself and I had a question: I'm not seeing heroism in the output. Is Simcraft simulating heroism during a fight? If so, how? The reason I ask is because that then impacts the Meta/Ruin spec because I'm not sure how Meta is being modelled either. As I'm sure we all know, the optimal time to use Meta is during a Heroism. If you have 3 points in Nemesis, the cooldown comes down to 126 seconds, with Heroism being used once in a fight, the optimal heroism usage (for most of the raid) and for a Meta/Ruin spec would be: Meta at start of fight once all buffs/debuffs are up (so with your first Dying Curse proc likely) and then 2nd Meta with the heroism sub 35% (so many classes have buffs sub 35% that it only makes sense to save Heroism for this time on shorter fights, plus enrage concerns in progression content). Is all of this modelled in Simcraft? If not, that could be accounting for a large portion of Meta/Ruin's lack of DPS.
why you didnt use glyph of meta for demo specc ? immolate is better ?
They're virtually equal, so I went with immolate because the meta glyph's usefulness depends on fight length.
Originally Posted by fip
So I have just started playing with running simcraft myself and I had a question: I'm not seeing heroism in the output. Is Simcraft simulating heroism during a fight? If so, how? The reason I ask is because that then impacts the Meta/Ruin spec because I'm not sure how Meta is being modelled either. As I'm sure we all know, the optimal time to use Meta is during a Heroism. If you have 3 points in Nemesis, the cooldown comes down to 126 seconds, with Heroism being used once in a fight, the optimal heroism usage (for most of the raid) and for a Meta/Ruin spec would be: Meta at start of fight once all buffs/debuffs are up (so with your first Dying Curse proc likely) and then 2nd Meta with the heroism sub 35% (so many classes have buffs sub 35% that it only makes sense to save Heroism for this time on shorter fights, plus enrage concerns in progression content). Is all of this modelled in Simcraft? If not, that could be accounting for a large portion of Meta/Ruin's lack of DPS.
In the simulation I'm running, heroism is popped at 25%, and meta is simply used whenever it's up. That may sound sub-optimal, but since these are 5 minute fights, it actually ends up being virtually optimal. The meta specs get to pop it three times, and the last meta falls almost entirely within the heroism.
In the simulation I'm running, heroism is popped at 25%, and meta is simply used whenever it's up. That may sound sub-optimal, but since these are 5 minute fights, it actually ends up being virtually optimal. The meta specs get to pop it three times, and the last meta falls almost entirely within the heroism.
There was a mechanic change to make it smarter for short fights: Bloodlust is triggered when target_t::time_to_die()=60sec. For all intents and purposes, that ends up being very close to the 25% mark Zak references.
When you set optimal_raid=1, the sim engine will trigger BL automatically when time_to_die=60. If optimal_raid=0, then you need to include a Shaman in the raid with "bloodlust" in his action list.
From what I can tell in the meta ruin profiles you prioritize curse of doom over metamorphosis. Could you switch these 2 around? It should result in CoD typically being casted during Meta, which in turn means CoD doing 20% more damage.
Also could you have a look at your CoD implementation? The reason I ask this is the fact that I'm seeing them hit for ~13.5k on simcraft, where as I more often than not see them hitting for upwards of 17k. Here's a Naxx Parse where the average CoD damage is 18.4k.
There was a mechanic change to make it smarter for short fights: Bloodlust is triggered when target_t::time_to_die()=60sec. For all intents and purposes, that ends up being very close to the 25% mark Zak references.
So Bloodlust is triggered at time_to_die = 60sec so I could just reverse engineer that and extend the fight so that Meta falls entirely within the last Bloodlust?
From what I can tell in the meta ruin profiles you prioritize curse of doom over metamorphosis. Could you switch these 2 around? It should result in CoD typically being casted during Meta, which in turn means CoD doing 20% more damage.
Good idea, I'll do that.
Originally Posted by Warlocomotif
Also could you have a look at your CoD implementation? The reason I ask this is the fact that I'm seeing them hit for ~13.5k on simcraft, where as I more often than not see them hitting for upwards of 17k. Here's a Naxx Parse where the average CoD damage is 18.4k.
Hmm. The only thing I can think of is Shadow Mastery. Does CoD benefit from it now? [EDIT: Nevermind, those specs don't have SM anyway. Though I'd still like to know if CoD benefits from SM now.]
another question for you Zakalwe: are you just editing/running the latest version of Simcraft that's posted on google docs or do you have a custom version that you're running on your own? I just ask because if you have updated the posted version on google and I can just use that myself, that'd be awesome :-D
Thanks!
Also, can anyone give me an example of how I could add in Demonic Empowerment to a spec? I get that I change the talent spec and link but I don't know what the code would be to toss that into the rotation.
another question for you Zakalwe: are you just editing/running the latest version of Simcraft that's posted on google docs or do you have a custom version that you're running on your own? I just ask because if you have updated the posted version on google and I can just use that myself, that'd be awesome :-D
A new download is imminent.....
While the PTR is up I've been trying to make daily downloads available.......
But I'm beginning to think it might be easier to "teach the man to fish"......
Right taking some notes on the go here for Curse of Doom, using my current spec- with no active pet.
This should mean talents provide no damage boost to CoD in any way. I also do not have any buffs, no fel armor, no spell/fire stone.
Spellpower: 1939
CoD: 11178 dmg
Base damage: 7300.
Damage from spellpower: 3878
Coefficient: *2
+Fel Armor.
Spellpower: 2337.
CoD: 11974
Base Damage 7300.
Damage from spellpower: 4674
Coefficient: *2
+Illustration of the dragonsoul stacked
Spellpower: 3140
CoD: 14544
Damage from spellpower: 6726
Coefficients: *2*1.05*1.02
These tests are all done without raid buffs, no consumables, no spellstone, no arcane intellect/fortitude/kings/motw (all of which Demonic knowledge effectively double dips with), no curse of elements, no feroscious inspiration, no metamorphosis. All tests are doing exactly the expected amount of damage.
In raids, esspecially if combined with 4xT7+Glyph of LifeTap, Curse of Doom would do even far more damage. However, even if you disregard all raid buffs that I mentioned above- my curse of doom is already hitting harder than the curse of doom's average damage from simcraft:
While the PTR is up I've been trying to make daily downloads available.......
But I'm beginning to think it might be easier to "teach the man to fish"......
I'm very much willing to learn, and so far I've been playing around with the simulation files themselves because they're fairly customizeable. I just want to be able to look under the hood and while I understand C++, looking at the code on Google confused me a fair bit. I dunno, maybe make a WoW build number visible next to each version of the code would be a start?
However, even if you disregard all raid buffs that I mentioned above- my curse of doom is already hitting harder than the curse of doom's average damage from simcraft:
The Tick damage sounds about right to me, but it only gets 4 ticks in 5.3 executions (?).
Ahh I was looking at DPE (damage per execution?), I'm guessing that just means that a number of CoD's get casted when the expected time to die is still above 1 minute, but the real time to die ends up being less than 1 minute?
[edit] 4 ticks in 5.3 executions seems really strange :/ Im not sure how it could tick 1 or more ticks less than the number of executions.
Last edited by Warlocomotif : 03/14/09 at 3:53 PM.
03/13/09, 10:41 PM
