4 ticks in 5.3 executions seems really strange :/ Im not sure how it could tick 1 or more ticks less than the number of executions.
Yes that has to be a bug. Given the maximum fight length of 300 seconds, the 4 ticks are correct. But considering that it has 0% miss, there's no way it should be cast more often than 5 times, even if it gets cast when fight will end in less than 60 seconds.
Turns out simcraft was modeling an old mechanic where dot applications could be fully resisted from level-based resists. This did not show up as misses in the reports, but still resulted in dots having to be recast. I fixed this bug, reran the simulations, and updated the OP.
Just for discussion's sake, let's say I can't hit the hit cap without the 3% hit talent (pretty sure I could with a regem, but let's pretend I couldn't).
What would be the best non-Affliction build that had Suppression? Of the ones listed, 3/52/16 or whatever it is obviously is highest up, but what about a 0/40/31 or something with 3 points moved into Suppression? Would that fair better than a deep demo? Trying to think up some Suppression builds and would appreciate ideas.
Just for discussion's sake, let's say I can't hit the hit cap without the 3% hit talent (pretty sure I could with a regem, but let's pretend I couldn't).
What would be the best non-Affliction build that had Suppression? Of the ones listed, 3/52/16 or whatever it is obviously is highest up, but what about a 0/40/31 or something with 3 points moved into Suppression? Would that fair better than a deep demo? Trying to think up some Suppression builds and would appreciate ideas.
0/41/30 has these talents as their final talents in each tree: Felguard, Emberstorm.
Both, Felguard and Emberstorm, are better talents than suppression.
You might be able to fit supression somewhere into 0/40/31- however I think it'd be a dps loss still going 2% crit vs 1% hit.
But really, this is something you can test perfectly well yourself by downloading Simcraft and modifying the profile. I'm probably not going to be answering such questions in the future.
Turns out simcraft was modeling an old mechanic where dot applications could be fully resisted from level-based resists. This did not show up as misses in the reports, but still resulted in dots having to be recast. I fixed this bug, reran the simulations, and updated the OP.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and this may not be the right post to quote, but if a CoD misses or is resisted you cannot recast CoD for the minute cooldown. I've only seen it happen a couple of times live where i've casted CoD, its been resisted or missed, and have had to switch in CoA for the minute of CoD's CD.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and this may not be the right post to quote, but if a CoD misses or is resisted you cannot recast CoD for the minute cooldown. I've only seen it happen a couple of times live where i've casted CoD, its been resisted or missed, and have had to switch in CoA for the minute of CoD's CD.
The user is at the hit cap in all of these simulations through gear and raid buffs meaning that CoD will never miss or be resisted and therefore will never be on cooldown without being on the mob.
Has there been any oppertunity to run the deep demonology specs with the Meta Glyph? I was wondering how that little bit of extra time might play out on the DPS numbers.
Ok, for the 0/41/30, and 0/40/31 builds you are running CoA according to the profiles, but on all the other non-Aff builds you are running CoD. Is that an oversight, were the profiles just not updated, or is CoA really better for the hybrid builds for some reason? Seems like if they aren't spec'ed for CoA then CoD might be better for the boss fight.
Ok, for the 0/41/30, and 0/40/31 builds you are running CoA according to the profiles, but on all the other non-Aff builds you are running CoD. Is that an oversight, were the profiles just not updated, or is CoA really better for the hybrid builds for some reason? Seems like if they aren't spec'ed for CoA then CoD might be better for the boss fight.
It's because the the 0/4x/3x builds rely on CoA for proccing Molten Core.
Okay, that certainly makes sense. I know all fights were tested using Doomgaurds, but what about summoning an infernal during the last minute of the fight? I know that's a trick that is suggested for affliction locks, and seems like it couldn't hurt the other specs, so long as it was limted to the last minute of burn time. I tested in on simcraft using the 0/40/31 build at 1k interations, with a max time of 300 and it came out to a 15 point dps gain. If that's correct it seems like a worthy investment of time and mats.
Might want to toss in 00/38/33 into your spec list it may end up scaling better, not sure. But I can't seem to find where to add in/change gear #'s for t8 to test this.
It's currently sitting in the high 6800's so fights like hodir it would end up scaling better as you often sit crit capped ( I'm aware this is a situational event BUT if you are going for a 3min kill every bit of dps counts)
The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.
considering that some of the specs listed are seperated by less then that?
This is just my personal opinion here, but I think that if two specs are that close together, the choice between them is far more down to your latency, playing style and personal preferences than it is to the difference in DPS between them. This is especially true given that very few fights are equivalent to Patchwerk, and the mechanics of each specific fight will have FAR more relevance to your final output than 15 DPS from an infernal might have.
It is valuable to keep track of different specs which are initially close together in DPS because they will scale differently and because they will be affected differently by any upcoming PTR changes. Adding an infernal to one of the specs is a static change that is highly unlikely to change the relative scaling of the specs in question.
That's not to say that you shouldn't use an infernal when it's appropriate, but 15 DPS is an inconsequential change on fights that do not favor the infernal. You're talking about 4500 damage total in a 5 minute fight.
Might want to toss in 00/38/33 into your spec list it may end up scaling better, not sure. But I can't seem to find where to add in/change gear #'s for t8 to test this.
It's currently sitting in the high 6800's so fights like hodir it would end up scaling better as you often sit crit capped ( I'm aware this is a situational event BUT if you are going for a 3min kill every bit of dps counts)
0/38/33 will most likely end up with higher dps. Unless you're only talking about Hodir fight DPS, of course.
This is just my personal opinion here, but I think that if two specs are that close together, the choice between them is far more down to your latency, playing style and personal preferences than it is to the difference in DPS between them. This is especially true given that very few fights are equivalent to Patchwerk, and the mechanics of each specific fight will have FAR more relevance to your final output than 15 DPS from an infernal might have.
It is valuable to keep track of different specs which are initially close together in DPS because they will scale differently and because they will be affected differently by any upcoming PTR changes. Adding an infernal to one of the specs is a static change that is highly unlikely to change the relative scaling of the specs in question.
That's not to say that you shouldn't use an infernal when it's appropriate, but 15 DPS is an inconsequential change on fights that do not favor the infernal. You're talking about 4500 damage total in a 5 minute fight.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand your point, and agree with you. However my testing on simcraft usually comes out about 600 dps lower then what they post on here due to the shorter duration, and so the actual test may come out far higher, like it did with the minor change I posted concerning the hybrid builds earlier. The main idea I was getting at though was looking at minor game play changes that we can come up with to increase our dps no matter what build we play. As the collective group comes up with these individual changes, all those little 15 point dps changes add up to 100 or 200 point increases in dps. But overall you are correct that 15 dps in and of itself in too inconsequential in real world gameplay to matter. Especially when your average dps can swing by hundreds of points from fight to fight.
I started reading back through the posts but as it's a very long thread I figured I'd make it longer and ask here. For 0/40/31 and/or any other spec using glyph of life tap, I'm assuming you're still using lifetap only when oom? I'm not fluent in simcraft coding so it might be in there but I'm probably overlooking it if it is. I just hate giving up my Immolate glyph, but wasn't sure of the merits of life tap glyph. Thanks for the response
I started reading back through the posts but as it's a very long thread I figured I'd make it longer and ask here. For 0/40/31 and/or any other spec using glyph of life tap, I'm assuming you're still using lifetap only when oom? I'm not fluent in simcraft coding so it might be in there but I'm probably overlooking it if it is. I just hate giving up my Immolate glyph, but wasn't sure of the merits of life tap glyph. Thanks for the response
Yeah, Earlier it was decided that using life tap on demand is more dps then trying to keep up the lifetap buff from the glyph. The life tap glyph is probably our highest dps boost, due to the high levels of spirit in higher levels of gear. Getting 40% of that as spell power is crazy. I have problems believing that it will stay like that through the patch, but we can only hope. It was noted though that on most fights you will life tap to full mana during breaks in the fight, but I think it will take some actual testing in real world play to see how much DPS the glyph actually equates to.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and this may not be the right post to quote, but if a CoD misses or is resisted you cannot recast CoD for the minute cooldown. I've only seen it happen a couple of times live where i've casted CoD, its been resisted or missed, and have had to switch in CoA for the minute of CoD's CD.
Yeah simcraft wasn't actually modeling CoD as having a cooldown at all. Now that I've fixed the resistance bug the cooldown won't ever come into play except for non-hit-capped players, but I'll add the cooldown just for completeness.
Originally Posted by Sprocket
Thanks! guess i'll keep 4pc a bit longer...
Yeah with the life tap glyph, especially if it stays at 40%, 4-piece T7 ends up being borderline overpowered. Even before getting any Ulduar gear, people will be getting 400+ extra spell power for the first 10 seconds after each life tap. With those numbers, I'm betting it'll be worth it to life tap every 20 seconds, whether you need the mana or not.
EDIT: Just to clarify, the tests showing life tapping only on demand being better were made while a) the life tap glyph was still only 20%, and b) simcraft modeled it as not benefiting from 4-piece T7.
b) simcraft modeled it as not benefiting from 4-piece T7.
Any way we could get a model it taking into account 4piece spirit bonus? Although since they both "activate" on life tap, the glyph buff might not take the 4pc buff since they occur at the same time. That probably would push it from the edge of overpowered into overpowered territory...
03/14/09, 5:37 PM
