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Old 03/16/09, 8:05 AM   #721
Cydos
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Abominatus_DMF View Post
This is just my personal opinion here, but I think that if two specs are that close together, the choice between them is far more down to your latency, playing style and personal preferences than it is to the difference in DPS between them. This is especially true given that very few fights are equivalent to Patchwerk, and the mechanics of each specific fight will have FAR more relevance to your final output than 15 DPS from an infernal might have.

It is valuable to keep track of different specs which are initially close together in DPS because they will scale differently and because they will be affected differently by any upcoming PTR changes. Adding an infernal to one of the specs is a static change that is highly unlikely to change the relative scaling of the specs in question.

That's not to say that you shouldn't use an infernal when it's appropriate, but 15 DPS is an inconsequential change on fights that do not favor the infernal. You're talking about 4500 damage total in a 5 minute fight.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand your point, and agree with you. However my testing on simcraft usually comes out about 600 dps lower then what they post on here due to the shorter duration, and so the actual test may come out far higher, like it did with the minor change I posted concerning the hybrid builds earlier. The main idea I was getting at though was looking at minor game play changes that we can come up with to increase our dps no matter what build we play. As the collective group comes up with these individual changes, all those little 15 point dps changes add up to 100 or 200 point increases in dps. But overall you are correct that 15 dps in and of itself in too inconsequential in real world gameplay to matter. Especially when your average dps can swing by hundreds of points from fight to fight.

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Old 03/16/09, 9:01 AM   #722
Sprocket
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Darkspear
I started reading back through the posts but as it's a very long thread I figured I'd make it longer and ask here. For 0/40/31 and/or any other spec using glyph of life tap, I'm assuming you're still using lifetap only when oom? I'm not fluent in simcraft coding so it might be in there but I'm probably overlooking it if it is. I just hate giving up my Immolate glyph, but wasn't sure of the merits of life tap glyph. Thanks for the response

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Old 03/16/09, 9:14 AM   #723
Cydos
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Sprocket View Post
I started reading back through the posts but as it's a very long thread I figured I'd make it longer and ask here. For 0/40/31 and/or any other spec using glyph of life tap, I'm assuming you're still using lifetap only when oom? I'm not fluent in simcraft coding so it might be in there but I'm probably overlooking it if it is. I just hate giving up my Immolate glyph, but wasn't sure of the merits of life tap glyph. Thanks for the response
Yeah, Earlier it was decided that using life tap on demand is more dps then trying to keep up the lifetap buff from the glyph. The life tap glyph is probably our highest dps boost, due to the high levels of spirit in higher levels of gear. Getting 40% of that as spell power is crazy. I have problems believing that it will stay like that through the patch, but we can only hope. It was noted though that on most fights you will life tap to full mana during breaks in the fight, but I think it will take some actual testing in real world play to see how much DPS the glyph actually equates to.

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Old 03/16/09, 9:56 AM   #724
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Migage View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, and this may not be the right post to quote, but if a CoD misses or is resisted you cannot recast CoD for the minute cooldown. I've only seen it happen a couple of times live where i've casted CoD, its been resisted or missed, and have had to switch in CoA for the minute of CoD's CD.
Yeah simcraft wasn't actually modeling CoD as having a cooldown at all. Now that I've fixed the resistance bug the cooldown won't ever come into play except for non-hit-capped players, but I'll add the cooldown just for completeness.

Originally Posted by Sprocket View Post
Thanks! guess i'll keep 4pc a bit longer...
Yeah with the life tap glyph, especially if it stays at 40%, 4-piece T7 ends up being borderline overpowered. Even before getting any Ulduar gear, people will be getting 400+ extra spell power for the first 10 seconds after each life tap. With those numbers, I'm betting it'll be worth it to life tap every 20 seconds, whether you need the mana or not.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the tests showing life tapping only on demand being better were made while a) the life tap glyph was still only 20%, and b) simcraft modeled it as not benefiting from 4-piece T7.

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Old 03/16/09, 10:15 AM   #725
Sprocket
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
b) simcraft modeled it as not benefiting from 4-piece T7.
Any way we could get a model it taking into account 4piece spirit bonus? Although since they both "activate" on life tap, the glyph buff might not take the 4pc buff since they occur at the same time. That probably would push it from the edge of overpowered into overpowered territory...

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Old 03/16/09, 10:25 AM   #726
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Sprocket View Post
Any way we could get a model it taking into account 4piece spirit bonus? Although since they both "activate" on life tap, the glyph buff might not take the 4pc buff since they occur at the same time. That probably would push it from the edge of overpowered into overpowered territory...
The latest simcraft release does have it taking into account the 4-piece bonus. I've tested this on the PTR, and that's the way it works. Life tapping puts a buff on you that lasts for 20 seconds and increases your spell power by 40% of your spirit, dynamically calculated. So for the first 10 seconds you have 120 (40% of 300) extra spell power if you have 4-piece T7.

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Old 03/16/09, 11:00 AM   #727
Demi9OD
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Warlock
 
Shadowmoon
I'm curious as to what level of Ulduar gear you would need surpass the 4pc bonus. Can you quantify 4pc+LT glyph as an average SP buff?

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Old 03/16/09, 11:12 AM   #728
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Demi9OD View Post
I'm curious as to what level of Ulduar gear you would need surpass the 4pc bonus. Can you quantify 4pc+LT glyph as an average SP buff?
Easily:

AverageSP = (RaidBuffedSpirit+150) * 0.4

For a very conservative raid-buffed spirit value of 600, this equals an average buff of 300 spell power - assuming you life tap every 20 seconds without fail.

300 SP from a glyph and a 4-piece set bonus, not bad. (Though it's not that easy, of course - you're life tapping more often than needed, in order to achieve perfect uptime of the glyph buff. So the cost isn't just a glyph and a 4-piece set bonus, it also costs X number of extra GCDs throughout the fight.)

EDIT: The 300 SP is what you get extra from the glyph given that you have the 4-piece bonus. If you want the reverse calculation (how much extra you get from the 4-piece bonus given that you have the glyph, which is probably the number you're looking for), see the following two posts.

Last edited by Zakalwe : 03/16/09 at 12:13 PM.

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Old 03/16/09, 11:29 AM   #729
Krazen
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Demi9OD View Post
I'm curious as to what level of Ulduar gear you would need surpass the 4pc bonus. Can you quantify 4pc+LT glyph as an average SP buff?
4t7 gives you an average of 150 spirit, if you are lifetapping every 20 seconds, which is essentially a constant 118.5 spellpower (if the LT glyph gives you 40%).

The gain from any 2 offset pieces (or 2t7) has to be about 60 spellpower a piece.

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Old 03/16/09, 12:05 PM   #730
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
4t7 gives you an average of 150 spirit, if you are lifetapping every 20 seconds, which is essentially a constant 118.5 spellpower (if the LT glyph gives you 40%).

The gain from any 2 offset pieces (or 2t7) has to be about 60 spellpower a piece.
How do you get 118.5 from 40% of 150?

EDIT: Ah, I get it, you're including fel armor, which I forgot to take into consideration. But you seem to be assuming that people have demonic aegis (0.4+0.39)*150 = 118.5. The value would be (0.4+0.3)*150 = 105 without demonic aegis.

Last edited by Zakalwe : 03/16/09 at 12:10 PM.

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Old 03/16/09, 2:58 PM   #731
angaroth
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warlock
 
Twisting Nether
I was reviewing the gear choices in the two chardev links (( love the fact that we are using real gear, btw )) and I can't see a single spec where the Plague Igniter is better than the Wand of the Archlich.

The Wand has 4 more spirit. So what I did was calculate
( 4 x SpiritScale + 20 x HasteScale ) - ( 24 x CritScale )

For any spec, if the answer was positive, it meant that the Wand was better. Any negative results meant the PI was better.
All calculations were positive. Is my math wrong?

As an aside, is there an option to include Lightweave as an option? Even now it seems to be neck-and-neck with +Haste as an enchant but the change in 3.1 is going to see a big bump in usefulness. Or is that covered with the flat +75sp for professions?

As an aside from the aside, a quick search of the code base for "optimal_raid" showed a number of buffs being applies to the player in sc_player.cpp but nothing in sc_pet.cpp. Is that because buffs are *not* applied to pets? I was sure that they were but couldn't prove it.

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Old 03/16/09, 3:00 PM   #732
dedmonwakeen
Bald Bull
 
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by angaroth View Post
As an aside from the aside, a quick search of the code base for "optimal_raid" showed a number of buffs being applies to the player in sc_player.cpp but nothing in sc_pet.cpp. Is that because buffs are *not* applied to pets? I was sure that they were but couldn't prove it.
The pet_t class is a derivative of player_t, and as such inherits the "combat_begin()" callback that initializes the raid buffs.


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Old 03/16/09, 3:56 PM   #733
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
I went ahead and made all the profiles life tap every 20 seconds to keep the glyph buff up. It's a pretty significant DPS boost for all specs, so I updated the OP with the new results.

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Old 03/16/09, 4:12 PM   #734
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by angaroth View Post
I was reviewing the gear choices in the two chardev links (( love the fact that we are using real gear, btw )) and I can't see a single spec where the Plague Igniter is better than the Wand of the Archlich.

The Wand has 4 more spirit. So what I did was calculate
( 4 x SpiritScale + 20 x HasteScale ) - ( 24 x CritScale )

For any spec, if the answer was positive, it meant that the Wand was better. Any negative results meant the PI was better.
All calculations were positive. Is my math wrong?
The problem is that the scaling factors we generate are based on the gear in the profile - if the gear gains more crit, the scaling factors show crit as less valuable, etc. I picked the igniter over the wand because they were within a few DPS of each other, and the Hit_Gear set was already much lower on crit than the Gear set.

If I let them diverge too much, say, by letting the Gear set have twice the crit rating of the Hit_Gear set, the scaling factors would show affliction as scaling much worse with crit than the other specs, without that necessarily being true.

Originally Posted by angaroth View Post
As an aside, is there an option to include Lightweave as an option? Even now it seems to be neck-and-neck with +Haste as an enchant but the change in 3.1 is going to see a big bump in usefulness. Or is that covered with the flat +75sp for professions?
Two professions are supposed to be covered by the flat +75sp. It's true that the new Lightweave is significantly better than the other profession "enchants", but it was decided that in order to be fair we wouldn't include it in the default gear sets, because we can't expect most raiders to reroll tailoring for it.

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Old 03/16/09, 4:20 PM   #735
Eeks
Von Kaiser
 
Eeks's Avatar
 
Orc Warlock
 
Nordrassil
Does lifetapping every 20 seconds award enough mana to not have to take mana reduction talents for a "dps" increase?

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