SimulationCraft for Warlocks (4.0.3a numbers at 80 and 85) - Page 53

texhex · 04/27/09, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Yeah the tentative T8 gear sets I put together ended up being quite low on haste - only 483 haste rating. Given that starting point, each point of SP is less worth than each point of haste. If you had, say, 650 haste rating, I'm sure the opposite would be true.

Speaking of the gear sets, they're horribly out of date and I don't have much spare time these days. Has anyone been able to compile an updated best-in-slot set featuring the latest hard mode drops? I'd be happy to accept external input on this. If not, I'll do it myself as soon as chardev is updated with the most recently discovered loot.

What about something like this:
Loot Rank for WotLK

Nnayr · 04/27/09, 6:03 PM

That itemizes items with a high amount of hit with a higher score, which when you are hit capped is completely incorrect.

Kanno · 04/27/09, 6:56 PM

I can do it if someone can help me outline the correct process... here's what I tried the other day:

1) use wowhead or something similar to score all gear with the correct weights for your spec, but without hit, take note of all the top scores for each slot, I labeled these BiS - nohit

2) go back and reenter the stat weights, but include hit this time. I just took the number for the highest stat, and used that number for hit rating so they would be weighed equally. Record all the top items' names. Now go back and change the weights back to no hit, and find the scores of your hit items and label them BiS - hit. (I think) you need to keep all the scores on the same weight scale.

3) Find the scores for your tier pieces.

4) I subtracted the BiS-hit score from the BiS-nohit score to find my "Hit Loss" score for each slot. I also subtracted the Tier score from the BiS-nohit score to find my "Tier Loss" score for all the tier slots.

5) Now I started building my set. I started with the necessary number of tier pieces to use, which from what I've read so far is 4pc t8. So I put the four tier pieces with the lowest Tier Loss score in my set. After that I went and and started adding hit pieces with the lowest Hit Loss score until I reached my preferred percentage of hit (Don't forget to add in icewalker, etc). Then I filled in the rest of the slots with the highest BiS-nohit scored pieces.

Now obviously this isn't perfect, I found the BiS gearsets in this thread and kind of said screw it and gave up halfway through making my own.

Eeks · 04/27/09, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kanno

I can do it if someone can help me outline the correct process... here's what I tried the other day:

1) use wowhead or something similar to score all gear with the correct weights for your spec, but without hit, take note of all the top scores for each slot, I labeled these BiS - nohit

2) go back and reenter the stat weights, but include hit this time. I just took the number for the highest stat, and used that number for hit rating so they would be weighed equally. Record all the top items' names. Now go back and change the weights back to no hit, and find the scores of your hit items and label them BiS - hit. (I think) you need to keep all the scores on the same weight scale.

3) Find the scores for your tier pieces.

4) I subtracted the BiS-hit score from the BiS-nohit score to find my "Hit Loss" score for each slot. I also subtracted the Tier score from the BiS-nohit score to find my "Tier Loss" score for all the tier slots.

5) Now I started building my set. I started with the necessary number of tier pieces to use, which from what I've read so far is 4pc t8. So I put the four tier pieces with the lowest Tier Loss score in my set. After that I went and and started adding hit pieces with the lowest Hit Loss score until I reached my preferred percentage of hit (Don't forget to add in icewalker, etc). Then I filled in the rest of the slots with the highest BiS-nohit scored pieces.

Now obviously this isn't perfect, I found the BiS gearsets in this thread and kind of said screw it and gave up halfway through making my own.

The new hard mode items aren't on wowhead yet. Also, gemming sockets I feel is the most complicated thing to weigh when compiling BiS lists.

texhex · 04/27/09, 8:15 PM

Originally Posted by Nnayr

That itemizes items with a high amount of hit with a higher score, which when you are hit capped is completely incorrect.

I know what it does.

So far the lootrank site shows the most up to date listing of the Ulduar items, heroic, hard or otherwise.

Ultimately spec is going determine BiS.

It looks like warcrafter.net is pretty up to date with the items as well.

I'll try get a BiS for 41/30 going on warcrafter.net

edit
warcrafter.net ismissing quite a few of the 239 items so it's a no go.

Looks like we are waiting unless someone wants to get out a spreadsheet and do some math...

32103940 · 04/27/09, 10:38 PM

I was able to come up with an improved set. Net attribute change should result in net dps change of > +40 according to scalars provided in the OP. I cant provide a more accurate number because the OP doesnt include scalars for stamina and hit.

-Major stat shift propagated by handwraps of the vigilant (i239), causing 65 hit loss from removal of tier hands.

-i maintain 4pc by switching wyrmhunter helm for tier piece for a clean hit to crit conversion also, both helms are surprisingly close in value if hit is assumed to be 0. (pretty much no other slot has this feature).

-Total hit loss of 126 is recovered from bracer, wand and ring changes. These 3 slots contain hit alternatives which have the lowest value drop from the (hitless value according to scalars on the first post).

-I regemmed neck, back, and feet with reckless topazes to obtain the socket bonuses. Reckless+5sp bonus > Runed+no bonus for neck and back, for all specs. Feet socket bonus can be ignored by using runed ruby only for 53/0/18.

-As above, for wand (1x yellow) and hands (2x yellow), I stick with all reckless since I favour the demo-based specs. Otherwise for these 2 slots, ignoring socket bonuses and going for runed ruby is the best choice for 53/0/18.

-Ive edited the overall gear attribute changes and made it visible with red/green.

-If you wish to gem runed scarlet for feet, wand and hands, manually do -38haste,-4spi and +33sp on top of what I did below:

# This is a default gear profile for Tier-8 Warlocks who don't have hit from talents
# Based on this gear set: (see below)
# Added 75 spell power to account for profession-specific bonuses

# Standard Gear Attributes
gear_stamina=950+16
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=0
gear_intellect=872-3
gear_spirit=306+78
gear_attack_power=0
gear_expertise_rating=0
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_spell_power=2383-23
gear_hit_rating=373-7
gear_crit_rating=471+96
gear_haste_rating=486-35

tier8_2pc=1
tier8_4pc=1

# Meta Gem
chaotic_skyflare=1

# Item Procs
illustration_of_the_dragon_soul=1
flare_of_the_heavens=1

# Gear List until chardev.org is updated:
# Helm: Collar of the Wyrmhunter with CSD + Purified Twilight Opal + sp/crit enchant
# Helm: Conqueror's Deathbringer Hood with CSD + Runed Scarlet Ruby+ sp/crit enchant
# Neck: Pendant of Fiery Havoc + Runed Scarlet Ruby
# Neck: Pendant of Fiery Havoc + Reckless Monarch Topaz //regem. negligible upgrade for affliction(+ ~0.1%), substantive advantage for the other specs with lower sp:haste scalar ratios.
# Shoulder: Conqueror's Deathbringer Shoulderpads + Runed Scarlet Ruby + sp/crit enchant 
# Back: Drape of Mortal Downfall +Runed Scarlet Ruby+ 23haste enchant
# Back: Drape of Mortal Downfall +Reckless Monarch Topaz + 23haste enchant //regem. same reason.
# Chest: Conqueror's Deathbringer Robe + Runed Scarlet Ruby + Reckless Monarch Topaz + 15spirit enchant
# Wrist: Unsullied Cuffs + Runed Scarlet Ruby + 30sp enchant
# Wrist: Bracers of Unleashed Magic + 30sp enchant
# Hands: Conqueror's Deathbringer Gloves + Runed Scarlet Ruby + 28 sp enchant.
# Hands: Handwraps of the Vigilant + 2x Reckless Monarch Topaz + 28 sp enchant. //alternative gemming is 2x runed scarlet, for advantage for 53/0/18 only.
# Waist: Sash of Ancient Power + Runed Scarlet Ruby + Purified Twilight Opal + Eternal Belt Buckle + Runed Scarlet Ruby
# Legs: Conqueror's Deathbringer Leggings + 2*Runed Scarlet Ruby + 50sp/20spi enchant
# Feet: Boots of Fiery Resolution + 2*Runed Scarlet Ruby + Icewalker enchant 
# Feet: Boots of Fiery Resolution + Runed Scarlet Ruby + Reckless Monarch Topaz + Icewalker enchant //regem. alternative is original, or affliction gemming
# Finger1: Signet of Manifested Pain
# Finger1: Frozen Loop
# Finger2: Shimmering Seal + Runed Scarlet Ruby
# Trinket1: Flare of Heavens
# Trinket2: Illustration of the Dragon Soul
# Mainhand: Runescribed Blade + 63 spellpower enchant
# Offhand: Ironmender
# Ranged: Scepter of Lost Souls
# Ranged: Petrified Ivy Sprig + Reckless Monarch Topaz

p.s, somebody needs to fix up a set that uses the i239 staff. Also, note that I use excel to compute the total attributes, but they are based on numbers I typed in manually, which are susceptible to error. I took reasonable effort to guard against this, but I cbf to verify. I'd rather wait for chardev to update its database and go from there.

Dragones · 04/28/09, 1:17 PM

Would the new pvp weapon Furious Gladiator's Mageblade - Item - World of Warcraft not be better then
Runescribed Blade

Netfelix · 04/28/09, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dragones

Would the new pvp weapon Furious Gladiator's Mageblade - Item - World of Warcraft not be better then
Runescribed Blade

Yes. But as of now, I don't know of any ilevel 239 1 handers from PVE. You're comparing ilevel 232 to 239. Basically what I'm saying is that I hope to God there's a better 1H that hasn't been discovered from a hard mode.

Dragones · 04/28/09, 2:44 PM

I was just talking about the bis list someone made for items so far but,

"As of today, only the items from Algalon are missing, but the quest rewards have been discovered."

All hard mode items have been discovered so only chance at a new 1h is if Algalon drops one.

trangoul · 04/28/09, 3:14 PM

Just thought I'd throw this out here. I at times in our 10 man raid need to pick up replenishment, yet done like the full destro rotation. So i figured I'd try to make a hybrid with destro. The results are This 0/34/37.

As you can see it picks up Replenishment, and then as much in the demo as possible, and simplifies your rotation over the destro one. From simcraft I am getting it ranking slightly higher than 3/13/55 using the warlock_t8.simcraft files.

DPS Ranking:
  67574 100.0%  Raid
   7683  11.4%  Warlock_T8_53_00_18_DG
   7322  10.8%  Warlock_T8_53_00_18
   7225  10.7%  Warlock_T8_00_41_30
   7105  10.5%  Warlock_T8_03_52_16
   7019  10.4%  Warlock_T8_00_56_15
   6873  10.2%  Warlock_T8_00_38_33
   6379   9.4%  Warlock_T8_00_40_31
   6339   9.4%  Warlock_T8_00_34_37_repl
   6234   9.2%  Warlock_T8_03_13_55
   5506   8.1%  Warlock_T8_00_13_58

#!simcraft max_time=300 optimal_raid=1
patch=3.1.0
warlock=Warlock_T8_00_34_37_repl
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=000000000000000000000000000003320030113511242003000000005203205210231051300200000
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/life_tap,glyph=1/immolate/conflagrate/curse_of_agony/corruption
actions+=/incinerate/life_tap
Warlock_T8_Hit_Gear.simcraft
glyph_life_tap=1
glyph_conflagrate=1
glyph_incinerate=1

*also that 0/38/33 build is This. I was trying to find something a bit better than the standard 0/40/31 dps wise (adding in a bit more fire multipliers).

#!simcraft max_time=300 optimal_raid=1
patch=3.1.0
warlock=Warlock_T8_00_38_33
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=000000000000000000000000000003320030113511252003020000005203205210231051020000000
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/life_tap,glyph=1/immolate/conflagrate/soul_fire,decimation=1/curse_of_agony/corruption,health_percentage>=35
actions+=/incinerate/life_tap
Warlock_T8_Hit_Gear.simcraft
glyph_life_tap=1
glyph_conflagrate=1
glyph_incinerate=1

And one final note. I just did a few more simulations swapping our Incinerate glyph for Imp glyph in both, and they both yielded about 2-3 DPS or so higher with the Imp glyph. In practice this might be a better glpyh to use as the imp is a much more set and forget aspect and he doesn't have to worry about movement so his dps is constant for much more of a fight than the warlock himself, thus lowering the warlocks personal contribution and inflating the imps.

Naforce · 04/28/09, 4:04 PM

Taking 1 point from backlash from that 0/38/33 spec and putting it in should be better though, since you gain 1% crit and your pet gains 2%.

Damphair · 04/28/09, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by trangoul

Just thought I'd throw this out here. I at times in our 10 man raid need to pick up replenishment, yet done like the full destro rotation. So i figured I'd try to make a hybrid with destro. The results are This 0/34/37.

As you can see it picks up Replenishment, and then as much in the demo as possible, and simplifies your rotation over the destro one. From simcraft I am getting it ranking slightly higher than 3/13/55 using the warlock_t8.simcraft files.

Thanks for posting this. I was thinking about this as well since I run into this problem (no replenish) from time to time, as well.

When I built the talent tree, it seems that we have 4 points to spend after picking up Master Demonologist and Improved Soul Leech. Seems that 2/3 Molten Core is good enough to proc, so that leaves us with 2 extra points. Our options are:

1/1 Demonic Empowerment
2/3 Demonic Knowledge
2/3 Pyroclasm
2/5 Shadow and Flame

I see two ways to do this.

First, we go with the Imp. That'll mean taking 1/1 Demonic Empowerment and 1/3 Demonic Knowledge, or just 2/3 Demonic Knowledge.

Second, we can go with destro, which means 1/3 Pyroclasm + 1/5 Shadow and Flame, or 2/3 Pyroclasm, or 2/5 Shadow and Flame. Seems that Shadow and Flame is better, since it does not rely on Conflagrate crit, but some modeling numbers would be nice.

So if you have the time, it'll be nice to see which spec from each route (more demo or more destro) is best, and then which one is better, 0/34/37 or 0/32/39.

trangoul · 04/28/09, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Damphair

So if you have the time, it'll be nice to see which spec from each route (more demo or more destro) is best, and then which one is better, 0/34/37 or 0/32/39.

I'll try to run it again. I ended up with about 12 different specs when I was testing, and I can say I've tried every combination of pyroclasm, backlash, and SnF. Point for Point, Demonic Knowledge beat SnF, so those were out quickly. Pyroclasm uptime was way to low for it to beat out Demonic Knowledge in a PvE setting. So those extra points in destro were not working out in any way that I liked. I then fooled around with varied numbers in MD and molten core, and 4/2 was working out about 150 DPS better than 5/1 and 3/3.

I can say I didn't try 5/5 in MD, and then either 1/1 in DE and 1/3 in DK, or 5/5 in MD and 2/3 in DK. I will try those builds later tonight and see which comes out on top. My gut feeling on this is that 4/5 in MD and 3/3 in DK is going to be better simply because the 100 or so spellpower the 1 extra point in MD provides is about 3.2% of my total spellpower (which would relate it to about 3.2% of my dps in rough calculations).

I am sorry that I didn't keep the old builds and profiles to post, I just had to clean up for my OCD, I had 12 profiles that all started 0_34_37_XXX or 0_33_38_XXX etc.

Alogos · 04/30/09, 3:43 AM

You need 25 points before master demonologist. There really are not very many better places to put that point.

Abominatus_DMF · 04/30/09, 3:48 AM

EDIT: Beaten to the punch.

In the tier below Master Summoner, there are only 3 points available. That means that you need to get 2 points from somewhere above that in order to progress down the tree and reach Master Demonologist. There are really very few options available. In the build you linked, you could transfer one point from Master Summoner into Mana Feed, which is my personal preference, but there is really nowhere to put the other one that yields a DPS increase.

I suppose you could take Improved Healthstone. However, sometimes your pet does die. It is rare, and should not happen unless your tank does something wrong and you are asleep. Being able to resummon quickly does mitigate the DPS loss in those situations.

Migage · 04/30/09, 4:04 AM

Keep in mind also that we are talking top DPS specs for lvl 80 and not lvling specs. Those two points would be served well in Imp Health funnel or Imp HS or Mana Feed for lvling.

There are definetely times when your pet wil die, sometimes controllable, sometimes not. Random events (or you losing concentration) are what makes the game dynamic. If you're wasting an age while resummoning your pet, that is purely time lost for dpsing. So in a round-a-bout way, it "can" actually net a dps increase to have Master Summoner.

Nartas · 04/30/09, 4:27 PM

New patch notes on mmo-champion

Nether Protection reduced to 30% damage reduction, down from 60%.
Shadow and Flame: Now also includes Shadowburn.
Fire and Brimstone: No longer increases the damage of your Immolate spell, but now increases the bonus damage your Incinerate deals to targets afflicted by your Immolate by 6/12/18/24/30%.
Conflagrate updated: Consumes an Immolate or Shadowflame effect on the enemy target to instantly deal damage equal to 12 seconds of your Immolate, or 8 seconds of your Shadowflame.

pghiocel · 04/30/09, 4:32 PM

The most important part:

Glyph of Conflagrate redesigned: When you use Conflagrate, the damage done by your next 3 Destruction spells is increased by 10% for 15 seconds if the Immolate on the target has 5 or fewer seconds remaining.

matthewseidl · 04/30/09, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Nartas

So with conflag updated do we actually gain back 10% damage (Live 70% of immolate's ticks) (Patch 12/15 secs 80% immolate ticks). So roughly we lose 15% damage on immolate, 5% loss on conflag (80%-15% immolate loss from F&B) to gain 30 % damage on incinerate. Furthermore the way it reads, it will only give you that 30% damage increase on incinerate if YOUR immolate is up so we can't even conflag 3X incin if another lock has immolate up we MUST put our own back up. YAY clipping immolate below the global is FUNNNN.

Except its not 30% to incin. 6% per talent point on an ability doing ~40% of my damage works out to 2.4% damage increase per talent point. Thats fairly over budget. The change reads:

Fire and Brimstone: No longer increases the damage of your Immolate spell, but now increases the bonus damage your Incinerate deals to targets afflicted by your Immolate by 6/12/18/24/30%.

So It adds 30% to the 145-169 bonus damage. Which in addition to the conflag crit bonus is still a very under budget talent.

Edit: Changed to remove the whining.

Yoblad · 04/30/09, 5:02 PM

This doesn't seem like a nerf to me. Blizz nerfed conflag because it was hitting huge in PvP. The side effect of this is Destro wasn't pulling it's weight for PvE compared to the other specs. This is their answer. There's some synergy with F&B, conflag, incinerate spam, and the T8 bonuses. I think we'll be using Glyphs of Conflag, CB, and Incinerate with the 4pc T8 bonus. Cast priority will consist of CoD then Immolate, incinerate spam until immolate is almost off, then conflag, CB, Immolate, incinerate spam.

CaelLock · 04/30/09, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by Weerea

That 145-169 is affected by spellpower (not sure on the coeff though) try it out on the target dummy, with immolate on the target - I get something like 700 extra damage on incinerate with immolate up. Still, these changes seem to make destro more complicated while not providing much (if any) dps increase.

I simply do not see this. Just ran a test on a dummy on live, and the data is below

Data

1935 SP, no proccing gear, no Fel Armor
Incinerate Tooltip : 698-812 + 174-203 with Immolate on target (note: tooltip includes contribution from % scaling talents like Emberstorm, but not spell power)

First 10 non-crit Incinerates w/o Immolate
2701
2707
2796
2722
2741
2785
2721
2695
2701
2690
Average - 2725.9

First 10 non-crit Incinerates w/ Immolate
2936
2915
2963
2942
2939
2876
2997
2913
2957
2950
Average 2938.8

Difference of 212.9

We would expect a difference of 188.5

So either the Spell Power coefficient for the extra Incinerate damage is .0126, or it is 0 and the difference is due to statistical noise of the small sample. I am inclined to believe the latter.

I'm hoping they just worded the F&B badly, otherwise this whole mini-patch is nothing but a hearty Deep Destro nerf.

Edit: Included data.

Malathar · 04/30/09, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Weerea

That 145-169 is affected by spellpower (not sure on the coeff though) try it out on the target dummy, with immolate on the target - I get something like 700 extra damage on incinerate with immolate up. Still, these changes seem to make destro more complicated while not providing much (if any) dps increase.

Immolate never has and most likely never will increase incinerate damage by 700. Not even crit damage.

Warlockx · 04/30/09, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nartas

Conflagrate updated: Consumes an Immolate or Shadowflame effect on the enemy target to instantly deal damage equal to 12 seconds of your Immolate, or 8 seconds of your Shadowflame.

Did you notice that it used to be 15 seconds of your immolate, so they clipped 3 seconds off it and that will be another damage nerf to conflag damage.

pghiocel · 04/30/09, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Warlockx

Did you notice that it used to be 15 seconds of your immolate, so they clipped 3 seconds off it and that will be another damage nerf to conflag damage.

Conflag was already hotfixed to be caculated based on 70% of the immolate cast (so 10.5 out of 15 seconds), so this would actually be a slight buff back up to 80% (12/15).

matthewseidl · 04/30/09, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Warlockx

Did you notice that it used to be 15 seconds of your immolate, so they clipped 3 seconds off it and that will be another damage nerf to conflag damage.

Not necessarily. It used to be 70% of 15 seconds of immolate. Now we've lost 15% from F&B, but gained 2.5sec of immo damage to conflag.

0.7 * (Immo * 1.15) = 0.805 * immo

Immo * 12 / 15 = 0.8 immo

So conflag damage should remain about the same. It might be a dps loss to cast it on cooldown though, now that it consumes the immo effect.