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Old 03/20/09, 7:56 AM   #871
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by whi View Post
Seems that both Demonic Empowerment(which was mentioned already and fixed, but is not updated in profiles) and Fire Stone are the way to go with Meta spec according to version 1882 of simcraft.
Spell stone and fire stone are pretty much indistinguishable in my tests. But you're right, I forgot to update the profile section of the OP when I changed the DE stuff. Fixed now.

Norway Offline
Old 03/20/09, 8:40 AM   #872
whi
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Bronzebeard (EU)
Did some more tests with a fresh simcraft, only things changed were profiles and max_time to 333, so the duration turns out closer to 300seconds:
SimSeconds = 300570
6515 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_immo_fs
6504 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_metag_fs
6500 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_immo
6498 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_fs
6498 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_metag
6489 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15
6489 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_metag_fs_immo
6643 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_immo_fs
6629 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_fs
6626 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_metag
6625 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_metag_fs_immo
6622 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_immo
6622 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_metag_fs
6586 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16
Warlock_T8_00_56_15 and Warlock_T8_03_52_16 being base ones(with added DE).
- _immo keeps using immolate throughout the whole fight
- _fs uses fire stone instead of spell stone
- _metag uses metamorphosis glyph instead of immolate one
- _immo_fs is immo and fs combined
- _metag_fs is metamorphosis glyph and fire stone
- _metag_fs_immo metamorphosis glyph, fire stone and immo combined

Its all not much, but as it stands now those specs need everything they can get, as my mages would love me if i could keep my deep demo spec after 3.1. :p

Last edited by whi : 03/20/09 at 8:49 AM.

Poland Offline
Old 03/20/09, 8:53 AM   #873
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
How many iterations are you running for these tests? I can't quite replicate your fire stone results, but I'll go ahead and change these profiles to fire stone anyway, since that should scale better. I'll change to immolate glyph as well - when doing previous testing of meta vs immo glyphs I forgot that the profiles were set up to drop immolate from the rotation below 35%.

EDIT: OP updated.

Last edited by Zakalwe : 03/20/09 at 9:00 AM.

Norway Offline
Old 03/20/09, 9:19 AM   #874
whi
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Bronzebeard (EU)
That was with the default 1000 iterations.

Just did one with 10000(eveything else same as in previous test):

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.1.0 (iterations=10000, max_time=333, optimal_raid=1)

6634 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_immo_fs
6627 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_metag
6627 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_fs
6624 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_metag_fs
6619 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_metag_fs_immo
6608 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16_immo
6588 5.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16

6505 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_immo_fs
6492 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_metag
6492 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_fs
6488 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_metag_fs
6486 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_metag_fs_immo
6486 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15_immo
6477 4.9% Warlock_T8_00_56_15

Last edited by whi : 03/20/09 at 9:54 AM.

Poland Offline
Old 03/20/09, 10:42 AM   #875
Tsarin
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Tanaris
So, to answer my own question on 0/40/31 and changing out from 4T7 to 2T7+2T8 then 4T8 it appears to be a pretty much straight upgrade path.

7101 3.7% Warlock_T8_00_40_31_4T8
7082 3.7% Warlock_T8_00_40_31_2T7
6916 3.6% Warlock_T8_00_40_31

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Old 03/20/09, 12:01 PM   #876
fip
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by whi View Post
Did some more tests with a fresh simcraft, only things changed were profiles and max_time to 333, so the duration turns out closer to 300seconds:

Warlock_T8_00_56_15 and Warlock_T8_03_52_16 being base ones(with added DE).
- _immo keeps using immolate throughout the whole fight
- _fs uses fire stone instead of spell stone
- _metag uses metamorphosis glyph instead of immolate one
- _immo_fs is immo and fs combined
- _metag_fs is metamorphosis glyph and fire stone
- _metag_fs_immo metamorphosis glyph, fire stone and immo combined

Its all not much, but as it stands now those specs need everything they can get, as my mages would love me if i could keep my deep demo spec after 3.1. :p
This is a 1-part question and 1-part response to this. I too am trying to investigate and justify bringing a deep-demo lock for DP to the raid. We currently run with about 1 SPriest, 2-3 Locks, 2-4 Mages, and a Boomkin at any given point. This means 6-9 caster DPS at any point. I ran the following 2 sims to show the difference between a raid with and without DP:

Without DP:
7004 11.2% Warlock_T8_53_00_18_DG
6936 11.1% Warlock_T8_00_40_31
6689 10.7% Warlock_T8_53_00_18
6689 10.7% Warlock_T8_00_41_30
6486 10.4% Warlock_T8_00_56_15
6083 9.7% Mage_T8_20_51_00
5929 9.5% Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF
5801 9.3% Priest_T8_13_00_58
5586 8.9% Mage_T8_52_19_00
5321 8.5% Shaman_T8_57_14_00

With DP:
7371 12.5% Warlock_T8_53_00_18_DG
7259 12.3% Warlock_T8_00_40_31
7047 11.9% Warlock_T8_53_00_18
7011 11.9% Warlock_T8_00_41_30
6497 11.0% Mage_T8_20_51_00
6263 10.6% Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF
6159 10.4% Priest_T8_13_00_58
5903 10.0% Mage_T8_52_19_00
5627 9.5% Shaman_T8_57_14_00

I simulated giving DP to everyone by increasing the spellpower for all their gear sets by 300 (which I found to be my average DP buff in mostly BIS gear on live). The result is pretty obvious: almost every class gets (on average) 300 or more DPS from 300 spellpower. So really the question for your raid becomes: is 300 spellpower (and even more in Ulduar) beat 280 spellpower from Elemental Shaman?

In my guild we have no Elemental Shaman so it's unquestionable that 300 spellpower as compared to the 165 from Flametongue Totem (135 spellpower increase) across all 6-9 casters easily makes up for the potential 600 dps decrease inherent in the DP spec. However as spellpower increases from gear, it will become even better for the raid, therefore even more justifiable. It looks to be far harder (if not impossible) to justify it if you already have an Elemental Shaman.

In the end it all comes down to your individual raid composition, and for guilds with a "sometime Shaman" it may be beneficial to utilize the dual-spec feature to spec a pure-dps build and a DP build for the times when he's not there.

My question to Zel is: does "optimal raid = 1" include an Elemental Shaman, or just Flametongue Totem?

edit: Answered my own question: it looks like optimal raid includes the +280 spellpower from Elemental Shaman. This doesn't change my results though. Ideally speaking, an Elemental Shaman is about 1,000 dps less than a DP-lock, so if you have a good enough Retadin to cover the 3%, having a Lock go Meta and replacing that Shaman's spot is probably advantageous. But now I'm getting off-topic. :-)

Last edited by fip : 03/20/09 at 1:16 PM.

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Old 03/20/09, 12:57 PM   #877
supplicium
Don Flamenco
 
supplicium's Avatar
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by MarcAntony View Post
I apologize if this has been answered somewhere, but I don't believe I've seen it.

Is there any data on the other deeps classes that would help us determine where we will stand on the meters in 3.1?
You can keep an eye on everything if you don't run simcraft your self here: SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code


As you can see we are still doing very good dps, rogues and ferals are just amazing. But we are still top-dog casters.

The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.

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Old 03/20/09, 2:48 PM   #878
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
New minor mechanic fix - it turns out spell and fire stones stack additively with shadow mastery and emberstorm, rather than multiplicatively as we assumed. The OP has been updated.

Norway Offline
Old 03/20/09, 5:43 PM   #879
Eeks
Von Kaiser
 
Eeks's Avatar
 
Orc Warlock
 
Nordrassil
Thanks for all your work Zak! If you have time could you update the scale factors and damage breakdowns in the beginning? (I fail at being able to compile)

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Old 03/20/09, 6:07 PM   #880
Warlocomotif
Don Flamenco
 
Warlocomotif's Avatar
 
Human Warlock
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
On PTR:
Immolation Aura
2467 Mana
Instant cast, 30s cooldown
Ignites the area around you. Causing 481 fire damage to all nearby enemies every 0 sec. Lasts 12.69 sec.
Immolation Aura
2467 Mana
Instant cast, 30s cooldown
Ignites the area around you. Causing 453 fire damage to all nearby enemies every 0.85 sec. Lasts 12.69 sec.
They however appear to hit for the same amount still. I want to look at this because of:
PTR Build 9704 - WotLK Wiki

Suggesting it had been nerfed.

Last edited by Warlocomotif : 03/20/09 at 6:15 PM.

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Old 03/20/09, 8:25 PM   #881
Sumbish
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Aman'Thul
Edit: updated for r1937

Fip, regards DP with no Ele shaman since this is also the case for our guild atm, and a very valid question with dual spec. I tried doing some sims using the actual DP buff rather than 300SP and it looked to me that 0/56/15 with no ele did almost exactly the same DPS as a 40/31 with no ele and no other DP lock. Fip's results don't agree with that.

I wouldn't mind a sanity check on my method as I'm not 100% sure I edited the files correctly; ie. optimal_raid=0, raid_T8, comment out ele sham, gave the Enh sham flametongue_totem instead of searing, run, then comment out DP lock, run. Does optimal_raid=0 remove more than I want if I'm using raid_T8.simcraft? Edit: I do get slightly lower numbers than Zak and a different DPS order too;

DP
6713 4.0% Warlock_T8_00_40_31
6499 3.9% Warlock_T8_53_00_18
6483 3.9% Warlock_T8_03_52_16
6482 3.9% Warlock_T8_00_41_30
6394 3.8% Warlock_T8_03_13_55
6341 3.8% Warlock_T8_00_56_15
5991 3.6% Mage_T8_20_51_00
No DP
6231 4.0% Warlock_T8_00_40_31
6211 4.0% Warlock_T8_03_52_16
6200 4.0% Warlock_T8_00_41_30
6127 3.9% Warlock_T8_53_00_18
5913 3.8% Warlock_T8_03_13_55
5593 3.6% Mage_T8_20_51_00

Last edited by Sumbish : 03/21/09 at 8:29 PM.

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Old 03/21/09, 2:54 AM   #882
bhaltayr
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Blackrock
I've run the simulations a few times using a customized gear profile that takes into account all of the known items from Ulduar so far. The only problems I've encountered with running the simulation like this is there is no model for our Tier 8 bonuses yet nor are there for some of the new trinkets. However upon running these simulations I've notice an interesting trend that was hit on earlier in this thread: The immense synergistic power of our four piece tier 7 and the Glyph of Life Tap.

Using my own Excel spreadsheet (which makes use of the Solver addon to optimize gear for maximum DPS given the scale factors) I built two gear profiles:

1. 4-piece Tier 7 with the new Ulduar items
2. Best in Slot with new Ulduar items

The results I found were that they do practically identical DPS when running the simulation. I'll come back tomorrow and get into specifics with my results as it's extremely late here.

It would be amazing if they could implement the new set bonuses and trinket procs when the information is available so we can get a more accurate feel for how "powerful" we'll be when we start attaining gear from Ulduar.

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Old 03/21/09, 4:54 AM   #883
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Regarding Immolation aura, 481 is actually the real base damage it's been doing on live all along - I tested it thoroughly before implementing it in simcraft. 251 sounds like a relatively big nerf, but I won't reduce it in the sim until I see it actually doing less damage.

Norway Offline
Old 03/21/09, 4:56 AM   #884
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by bhaltayr View Post
It would be amazing if they could implement the new set bonuses and trinket procs when the information is available so we can get a more accurate feel for how "powerful" we'll be when we start attaining gear from Ulduar.
All the set bonuses, and most of the new trinkets, are implemented in SVN, so they'll be in the next release.

Norway Offline
Old 03/21/09, 5:04 AM   #885
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Sumbish View Post
I wouldn't mind a sanity check on my method as I'm not 100% sure I edited the files correctly; ie. optimal_raid=0, raid_T8, comment out ele sham, gave the Enh sham flametongue_totem instead of searing, run, then comment out DP lock, run. Does optimal_raid=0 remove more than I want if I'm using raid_T8.simcraft? Edit: I do get slightly lower numbers than Zak and a different DPS order too;
This sounds like the correct method for testing DP - adding a static 300 SP to all actors doesn't make much sense, since DP isn't even close to providing that on average with current gear. The default Raid_T8.simcraft already sets optimal_raid=0, so that's no problem. You just have to make sure you don't remove any other unique buffs by commenting out the ele shaman - which I'm pretty sure you aren't, since you also have the enhancement shaman in the raid.

And it does make sense that you get lower numbers than the default run gets, because ToW is significantly better than DP in current gear.

Norway Offline
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