Fifty percent of the iterations will be above the average dps value for the simulator. Real DPS on the other hand, on average will be lower than that (unless as Zakalwe mentioned, you obtain some unexpected buff), provided the fight is at least five minutes. The sim makes the assumption that you play to perfection and never make a mistake in your rotation. And by "playing to perfection" I mean not humanly possible. There will be cases where someone can outperform the sim, this is the result of either RNG, short fight length, or receiving some unexpected buff.
The difference of your real dps to the average dps value, obtained from simulationcraft by averaging over many iterations, should be symmetric positive-/negative-wise, shouldn't it?
Yes, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise - I was just listing the possible ways to get a *higher* DPS than the sim predicts.
Well the Simcraft numbers are in a 100% ideal situation, e.g., no movement, perfect play, etc. It shouldn't generally be possible to reach the Simcraft numbers unless you get really lucky with crit rates or find an ideal fight.
Just out of curiosity, would it make sense to add some parameter called mistake rate, which causes the sim to skip the 'correct' move and do the 2nd most 'correct' item in the priority?
For example say the mistake rate is 20%, and the sim is modeling FG Emberstorm, and Corruption and Immolate are on the target, but not CoA, in this situation, 20% of the time the sim would cast Incinerate instead of CoA. I don't know the code so I don't know how hard this would be to implement but it seems interesting to me
Assuming your mistake is to always cast additional fillers rather than refreshing dots on time, as I believe would mirror actual ingame play, you need merely look at the filler DPET to determine which specs maintain high performance with sub-optimal play. Destruction builds suffer the least due to the high DPET of Incinerate, with mistakes on refreshing immolate causing more harm. Demo comes in the middle, and affliction suffers the most with additional shadowbolts not only being low DPET but haunt mistakes quite costly to overall damage.
Assuming your mistake is to always cast additional fillers rather than refreshing dots on time, as I believe would mirror actual ingame play, you need merely look at the filler DPET to determine which specs maintain high performance with sub-optimal play. Destruction builds suffer the least due to the high DPET of Incinerate, with mistakes on refreshing immolate causing more harm. Demo comes in the middle, and affliction suffers the most with additional shadowbolts not only being low DPET but haunt mistakes quite costly to overall damage.
I think this would flow naturally from what I described, I wouldn't make the mistake refresh dots early, just cast the next best thing in the priority system instead of the best thing. This would mean a lot of filler instead of refreshing dots, and sometimes casting a lower priority (DPET) dot instead of the 'best' choice
For destro builds, I haven't found much treatment of the following situation: immolate is going to expire in more than 1.5 seconds but less than 2.25 seconds (adjusted for haste), conflagrate and chaos bolt are both on cooldown, and you don't need to life tap or refresh your curse. On live, you probably just cast incinerate because the damage difference isn't very large. But in 3.1.2 you'll miss a 15% multiplicative bonus on incinerate, and the dilemma applies even if chaos bolt is cooled down.
The options I can think of are:
1. Fire the nuke for lower damage.
2. Recast immolate and clip the last tick.
3. Cast corruption, assuming it's not already up for whatever reason.
4. Wait until it's time to recast immolate.
It appears that the Simulationcraft runs in this thread are doing (1); it would be interesting if the report could convey how many incinerate and chaos bolt casts are unboosted as a result, and of course it would also be interesting to see if (2) works out better. Waiting is very rarely the right answer, so I doubt (4) is the winner.
It seems unlikely to me that 2 would be the correct answer either in a live environment, simply because you run the risk of hitting the "A more powerful effect is already active" issue when you try and clip Immolate. The DPS loss from that far outweighs what you will lose from the reduced efficacy of one Incinerate.
Of course, if you are able to determine that the new immolate will overwrite the old then the option is intriguing, but I don't think that anyone can reasonably expect to do that with certainty in a busy fight.
It seems unlikely to me that 2 would be the correct answer either in a live environment, simply because you run the risk of hitting the "A more powerful effect is already active" issue when you try and clip Immolate. The DPS loss from that far outweighs what you will lose from the reduced efficacy of one Incinerate.
Of course, if you are able to determine that the new immolate will overwrite the old then the option is intriguing, but I don't think that anyone can reasonably expect to do that with certainty in a busy fight.
The game does in fact let you clip Immolate currently on the PTR, even if the one already applied is stronger, so #2 is the best option. I'm so glad they fixed this, it was rather frustrating in situations like this.
For destro builds, I haven't found much treatment of the following situation: immolate is going to expire in more than 1.5 seconds but less than 2.25 seconds (adjusted for haste), conflagrate and chaos bolt are both on cooldown, and you don't need to life tap or refresh your curse. On live, you probably just cast incinerate because the damage difference isn't very large. But in 3.1.2 you'll miss a 15% multiplicative bonus on incinerate, and the dilemma applies even if chaos bolt is cooled down.
The options I can think of are:
1. Fire the nuke for lower damage.
2. Recast immolate and clip the last tick.
3. Cast corruption, assuming it's not already up for whatever reason.
4. Wait until it's time to recast immolate.
It appears that the Simulationcraft runs in this thread are doing (1); it would be interesting if the report could convey how many incinerate and chaos bolt casts are unboosted as a result, and of course it would also be interesting to see if (2) works out better. Waiting is very rarely the right answer, so I doubt (4) is the winner.
Option 4 is probably worth it if you're waiting less than ~0.2 seconds usually (depending on your total DPS and Immolate ticks).
Otherwise I'd do option 2 in 3.12 because raidbuffed the Incinerate bonus damage should be more than a tick of Immolate. (Assuming the overwrite bug is fixed)
@Above poster:
How do you test if the bug is fixed when Immolate ticks currently don't scale with SP on PTRs?
The game does in fact let you clip Immolate currently on the PTR, even if the one already applied is stronger, so #2 is the best option. I'm so glad they fixed this, it was rather frustrating in situations like this.
I doubt this is the best option. The Immolate dot is one of the spells with the highest DPET and a clipped Immolate only does 4/5 of the dot damage. Not only that, but if you clip an Immolate when it's 1 second away from expiring, you're doing the same thing as reducing Immolate uptime by 2 seconds.
Now that we have a new PTR builld with the announced changes to F&B, it would be really interesting if someone could determine how exactly F&B works, how it stacks with talents like Emberstorm, etc.
I guess my question is, if I spec 3/13/55 and do my best to only LT during movement/transitions, do you guys think it would be higher dps to glyph for LT or Immolate in ulduar real situations?
The sim gives you an upper bound on the value of Glyph of Life Tap.
You can run the sim, changing the actions list for 3/13/55 so that it's equal to the actions list of 00/13/58. That would give you a lower bound.
The real value would be somewhere in the middle, probably closer to the upper bound than to the lower bound as long as you try to spread Life Taps.
And btw, another difference is that 00/13/58 has an Imp capped for spell hit, while 03/13/55 doesn't. It shouldn't matter much, though.
Fire and Brimstone: Now increases the damage done by your Incinerate and Chaos Bolt by 3/6/9/12/15% on targets afflicted by Immolate, and increases the critical strike chance of your Conflagrate by 5/10/15/20/25%.
Originally Posted by Midra
Incin hit damage:
Avg damage without immolate down, just 20 hits:
Base: 2028
w/F&B: 2191
w/F&B, ember: 2333
These are pretty close to what we'd expect, no surprises there.
Shouldn't the damage without immolate be the same with and without F&B? Why is there an increase in damage? Did you spec the same just without F&B/ember?
the three points in affliction are not as effective in deep destro in my view becuase if you went for 11%hit and had 3% in suppression you will still be taking a chance on missing on your incinrate,chaos bolt and conflagrate as there do most of your damage going 13/58 is much more beneficial in your dps. also alot of items in ulduar are more hit based than naxxramas so it wouldnt be difficult to acquire the correct amount of hit you need
Suppression covers all spells now, not just affliction. You are basically trading 3% crit and the Lifetap Glyph for the Immolate glyph and less globals spent on Life Tap.
the three points in affliction are not as effective in deep destro in my view becuase if you went for 11%hit and had 3% in suppression you will still be taking a chance on missing on your incinrate,chaos bolt and conflagrate as there do most of your damage going 13/58 is much more beneficial in your dps. also alot of items in ulduar are more hit based than naxxramas so it wouldnt be difficult to acquire the correct amount of hit you need
You do realize that suppression now gives you a flat +3% hit chance to ALL spells, not just affliction ones, right? And that the simcraft shows that you can re-itemize for less +hit on your gear overall in order to get gear that has more offensive stats on it? In the "real world", you're of course likely to be limited by the gear you have rather than the gear you want, but in terms of theroetical maxima, it's possible to get a high-hit and a low-hit set of gear.
hmm. I have been researching this all day and it has been driving my nuts. Here is my armory... The World of Warcraft Armory
With my current gear and either spec I am able to use 11% as a hit base? I know there are many threads on all of this but the problem is, none of them agree. Some say 17% which means 14% with suppression. Yet some say 14% with suppression. ARGGHH! Anyways I raid 25 man ulduar and would like to be effective during the fight and not miss.
You need to get 17% to not miss a lvl 83.
Suppression = 3%
Improved Faerie Fire(Oomkin) or Misery(SPriest) = 3%
289 hit = 11%
368 hit = 14%
446 hit = 17%
Find a combo that gets you 17%
Examples:
Suppression + Misery + 289 hit = Good
Suppression + 368 hit = Good
Misery + 368 hit = Good
446 hit = Good
My sims replicate Zaks numbers very closely, except these two in bold.
Spirit is of course ranked a lot higher for deep demo builds due to using glyph of life tap, but I cannot work out how the glyph makes this much of a difference? Im getting a value of 0.99 for spirit for the deep demo builds. Is there something I'm missing?
Also, I can't understand the huge drop in value for haste. I'm showing a reduction, but not to anywhere .73. Again, is there something I'm missing?
My sims replicate Zaks numbers very closely, except these two in bold.
Spirit is of course ranked a lot higher for deep demo builds due to using glyph of life tap, but I cannot work out how the glyph makes this much of a difference? Im getting a value of 0.99 for spirit for the deep demo builds. Is there something I'm missing?
Also, I can't understand the huge drop in value for haste. I'm showing a reduction, but not to anywhere .73. Again, is there something I'm missing?
For a discussion of different scaling factors for the specs go to here. Try changing spirit to be 600 higher and then running new scale factors. That will help eliminate mana usage as a reason for spirit scaling.
Looking at the damage breakdown between the 2 specs doesn't give any clear signals as to why the haste scaling is so different. There is a little bit more felguard damage for 52_16 and 41/30 uses CoA which gets more benefit from haste than 52_16 which uses CoD. 41/30 also has better DPET on its main nukes with inc 4861 > shadow 4424 and soul fire 10617 > 10055. 41_30 also has a far stronger immolate 10766 > 7988.
More work will need to be done however to determine the exact reasons for such a large difference.
For a discussion of different scaling factors for the specs go to here. Try changing spirit to be 600 higher and then running new scale factors. That will help eliminate mana usage as a reason for spirit scaling.
Looking at the damage breakdown between the 2 specs doesn't give any clear signals as to why the haste scaling is so different. There is a little bit more felguard damage for 52_16 and 41/30 uses CoA which gets more benefit from haste than 52_16 which uses CoD. 41/30 also has better DPET on its main nukes with inc 4861 > shadow 4424 and soul fire 10617 > 10055. 41_30 also has a far stronger immolate 10766 > 7988.
More work will need to be done however to determine the exact reasons for such a large difference.
It seems likely that insufficient mana is the reason for both discrepancies - Spirit for obvious reasons, and haste since I'd imagine you gain less per point of haste if, for example, you need to life tap once more near the end of the fight to get another spell off.
Going back to the question about whether to clip Immolate or cast an unbuffed incinerate, this brings up something i've been thinking about.
If you cast the Incinerate, and then follow up with an Immolate, wouldn't the Incinerate receive the buff if Immolate is applied to the boss during the travel time of the Incinerate?
Going back to the question about whether to clip Immolate or cast an unbuffed incinerate, this brings up something i've been thinking about.
If you cast the Incinerate, and then follow up with an Immolate, wouldn't the Incinerate receive the buff if Immolate is applied to the boss during the travel time of the Incinerate?
The damage of your attack, buffs, debuffs, and everything, is decided from the time you begin casting to the moment you stop casting. Anything that was on the boss when your cast ends is what you got when your Incinerate eventually hits it. So, practically, this means you don't have to worry about Immolate clipping v. Incinerate buffing, and refreshing an Immolate on a boss before Incinerate hits doesn't make a bit of difference, as it's damage is already decided.
And, if other Warlocks in your raid are putting Immolate up, that means there's even less cause to stress if you catch an Incinerate or two without your Immolate multiplier.
I don't get it, Im in the test realm, I can hit around 3.8k-4k dps on a test dummy with affliction, but then I try both new destro builds with both glyph set ups, And i can't hit nearly the dps. Im down near 2.8-3.0. I have a 98ms, and follow the same rotation as stated on these sim craft. I have lots of haste and very little crit but that should be better for destro according to stats in this post.
My stats with fel Armor is
Sp 2469
Spirit 608
Crit 13.88% or 172 Crit Rating
Haste is 473
Hit 365 (Tested on non heroic dummy since I don't have 3% hit buff)
I have dying curse and Illustration of the dragon soul. And ttt.
What am I doing wrong? Is 3800k-4000k around what I should be getting with affliction? Any ideas why my dps is taken such a tole when going destro?
Rotation
WIth life Tap glyph
LT >> COD >> Imo >> Conflag >> CB >> Incin >> Incin >> then pop COD when cd ready and LT 1.5 seconds or so before it goes off, and do the best I can to get CB into Backlash?
Without life tap just remove lifetap from rotation, Any ideas what im doing wrong? Any help would be amazing i've been trying to test this for the last 4-5 hours.
Thanks,
Dave
If your target is below 35% hp then you'll be doing 12% more damage as affliction. Also look at the scaling factors of the specs. DPSing solo without buffs you are losing a lot more dps as destro than as afflic, the new destro scales rediculously well, the stat/rating scores are all significantly above afflictions.
05/11/09, 7:13 AM
