You're missing his point. He's saying the real-world value of spirit is probably less than what simcraft says it is. This is entirely correct, because spirit is less valuable in a movement fight (i.e. real-world raiding) than in a tank-and-spank fight (i.e. simcraft).
EDIT: I read your post again and I'm no longer sure if you're missing the point or if you're just wrong, so I'll elaborate: Spirit is less valuable in a movement fight because you can fit life taps into parts of the fight where you can't do any other DPS. This means you waste less DPS time life tapping, which means it matters less how much mana each life tap returns. In the most extreme example there's enough movement that you'll never waste any DPS time life tapping at all, in which case spirit is worth exactly the 42.9% of spell power obtained through fel armor.
What if you have Glyph of Lifetap? That means in movement fights you will have a longer uptime for the lifetap buff, so does that make spirit more valuable than what the simulcraft scaling factors say?
What if you have Glyph of Lifetap? That means in movement fights you will have a longer uptime for the lifetap buff, so does that make spirit more valuable than what the simulcraft scaling factors say?
On movement fights you will have a lower uptime of the lifetap buff as its better to lifetap when moving, rather than when your nuking. Lifetapping during dps time results in a dps loss whether u have the glyph or not. Therefore on fights where u can lifetap when moving it devalues the Lifetap glyph.
One small thing I noticed. The link to the Best in Slot gear set_Hit on Chardev.org has the gloves Handwraps of the Vigilant socketed with 2 Runed Scarlet Rubies for 38 spell power. The sockets are both yellow. The socket bonus is +7 spell power. Changing both gems to Reckless Monarch Topaz (+9 SP / + 8 haste) nets a change of -13 spell power + 16 haste. This is a better choice for all specs listed in the first post, with the exception of affliction, according to the scaling factors listed in the first post.
Somebody should definitely create an addon for scale factoring. I mean that you could compare items in game by stat weighting(by previuosly inserted scale factors). Or there is an addon for that already?
Somebody should definitely create an addon for scale factoring. I mean that you could compare items in game by stat weighting(by previuosly inserted scale factors). Or there is an addon for that already?
I noticed this on the Sample Output T8 on the simulationcraft site. Did the simulation make a mistake or are we actually supposed to keep the Life Tap buff up at all times as 3/13/55?
No, as the graph tells you are only life-tapping if you are able to gain a 1:1 ratio of life/mana lost/gained (apart from Improved Life Tap, which is not affected in this talent build anyway).
On movement fights you will have a lower uptime of the lifetap buff as its better to lifetap when moving, rather than when your nuking. Lifetapping during dps time results in a dps loss whether u have the glyph or not. Therefore on fights where u can lifetap when moving it devalues the Lifetap glyph.
And what if you were to Lifetap right before you stop moving when you have located to your new position? Sooner or later you get to stop and put up some nukes. Lifetapping at this point would be a dps increase as you lose no time you could be spending on nukes and gain the extra spell power. If you are really looking to max your dps you should be able to time a Lifetap in so that you get the most effect from the buff with out losing dps time.
Not to defend Shadowburn (because you are right, it's terrible) but what single talent point can you pick up instead that benefits you at all?
I would rather put the extra point to the demonic embrace actually. There's already a couple of out-of-rotation spells you can cast while moving, such as life tap, corruption and dc. However, it doesn't make a big difference where you spend it.
No, as the graph tells you are only life-tapping if you are able to gain a 1:1 ratio of life/mana lost/gained (apart from Improved Life Tap, which is not affected in this talent build anyway).
3/13/55 is actually lifetapping to keep the glyph up. 0/13/58 isn't. Mind you it would be a DPS increase to lifetap less than the sim does, so long as you dont clip your lifetap buffs.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
3/13/55 is actually lifetapping to keep the glyph up. 0/13/58 isn't. Mind you it would be a DPS increase to lifetap less than the sim does, so long as you dont clip your lifetap buffs.
Actually you get the same DPS if you don't priorize lifetap in the cast sequence for 3/13/55. You won't see a DPS increase until the fight time is extended by a fairly large amount (eg. tripled).
Actually you get the same DPS if you don't priorize lifetap in the cast sequence for 3/13/55. You won't see a DPS increase until the fight time is extended by a fairly large amount (eg. tripled).
Set infinite mana to 1, and test 2 rotations (both with glyph of lifetap), 1 rotation with lifetap every 20 seconds, and another rotation without lifetapping. You'll find the one that doesn't lifetap at all doing more DPS (This has been tested and confirmed previously in this thread). A logical conclusion you can draw from this is that lifetapping for the buff is not a DPS increase in itself.
What *is* a DPS increase, is glyph of Life Tap. Why is it a DPS increase? Because you need to lifetap regardless to get mana. It is also a DPS is to not clip your Glyph of Life Tap buff in the lifetaps that you do. Mind you this doesn't mean you should lifetap just to get the buff, just that not clipping your life tap buff while doing the lifetaps that you *need* (for mana) is a DPS increase.
The sim currently does not reflect this (as there is no good way to implement this into a rotation AFAIK), but the ideal way to lifetap is basically to follow these rules:
1] Do not clip your Glyph of Life Tap Buff
2] Do not lifetap more than needed
3] If you're moving and have already applied all instant casts you can, you might aswell lifetap despite rule 1 and 2.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
What *is* a DPS increase, is glyph of Life Tap. Why is it a DPS increase? Because you need to lifetap regardless to get mana. It is also a DPS is to not clip your Glyph of Life Tap buff in the lifetaps that you do. Mind you this doesn't mean you should lifetap just to get the buff, just that not clipping your life tap buff while doing the lifetaps that you *need* (for mana) is a DPS increase.
The sim currently does not reflect this (as there is no good way to implement this into a rotation AFAIK), but the ideal way to lifetap is basically to follow these rules:
1] Do not clip your Glyph of Life Tap Buff
2] Do not lifetap more than needed
3] If you're moving and have already applied all instant casts you can, you might aswell lifetap despite rule 1 and 2.
That's the problem really, the sim does not reflect this and so we are faced with 2 things.
1) We know that life tap is a dps increase but we don't know how much of one.
2) Since we don't know how much of one it is we don't know if it is better then say Glyph of Incinerate or Glyph of Immolate.
I don't suppose their is a way to get the sim to model this so we could compare the relative dps increases?
And hi as well Thor... 8 month wow vacation put me a little out of the loop :-).
Actually....... There is a ton of latent function SimulationCraft that hasn't been announced yet.
We've been adding support for various raid events (boss (in)vulnerability, stuns, movement, damage, boss-casting requiring kick/silence/etc).... It is not complete, so we haven't made it official.
Every 30sec (or so) the players will be required to move for 5sec only able to cast instants. The AI will walk your action list filtering out channeled and cast-time spells, eventually getting to life_tap.
Mages could take advantage of invulnerability phases for Evocate, etc.....
The function is there in the most recent release. We'll make a formal announcement with documentation in a couple of days once it is more fleshed out.....
This is all with non hard mode gear, purpose was to max out haste and sp while maintaining the hit and easy to get gear.
some things can be changed like the scale of fates to dragon soul trinket
Stats:
2229sp
370hit
668haste
16.22% crit (maybe low but the haste should make up for it and raid buffs still make the crit decent)
Which means that those actions are to be appended after regular actions, so for example for destro it will be "/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=70/immolate/conflagrate/chaos_bolt/incinerate" and then followed by above list.
For simulations without movement that will not change much - only way sim will pass all previous spells is if no mana, and then first life_tap will occur.
But during movement, when regular spell could be used, sim will attempt to use Life Tap if mana percentage is under 20%, and LT glyph effect or tier7-4pc effects are not up. Otherwise it will try to use Corruption or CoA if time enough (for destro those 2 are not in regular rotation, and for afflic/demo they will most likely already be up). If none of those, it will try shadow_burn or shadowfury, if they are available (have talent,not on CD...). If all of above not ready, then it will try CoA or Corruption even if near end of fight (better than just running).
And if nothing of above is possible (most probably due to lack of mana) then Life Tap is used without conditions.
Movement stuff is still under test, so not sure if it is included in latest version. But what it already shows is that if we use current actions during movement (without fillers), we get noticeably less DPS than when we extend them with above list of "movement fillers".
Also it shows that even during movement, glyph of life tap has (still) about same DPS gain as glyph of immolate (since we still use about same number of LTs, only those LT used during movement have less impact on DPS) .
BTW, shadowfury is also added as spell (so we can use it as filler). Preliminary tests show that its DPS is not good enough to be used in regular rotation (since it would need,with lag, almost no GCD for that, and tests show that it has closer to 0.5sec 'gcd'). But while it may not be good enough for regular rotation, it is good enough as filler during movement - about same DPS as shadow_burn in fact.
Set infinite mana to 1, and test 2 rotations (both with glyph of lifetap), 1 rotation with lifetap every 20 seconds, and another rotation without lifetapping. You'll find the one that doesn't lifetap at all doing more DPS (This has been tested and confirmed previously in this thread). A logical conclusion you can draw from this is that lifetapping for the buff is not a DPS increase in itself. [...]
Yes, it has already been proven that not to lifetap at all is a DPS gain compared to tapping for the lifetap buff at infinite mana.
I wanted to point out that this could be misread and being considered in the wrong context:
Originally Posted by Warlocomotif
3/13/55 is actually lifetapping to keep the glyph up. [...]
It should be stated that it's the sim of which you are speaking of, not practice. It is caused due to the current limitations of providing optimal mechanics for benefitting from Glyph of Lifetap by the simulation. In practice you should not lifetap more than needed and not clip the buff, as Warlocomotif pointed out.
It should be stated that it's the sim of which you are speaking of, not practice. It is caused due to the current limitations of providing optimal mechanics for benefitting from Glyph of Lifetap by the simulation. In practice you should not lifetap more than needed and not clip the buff, as Warlocomotif pointed out.
There is no limitation for sim related to that - if you don't want to keep buff all the time, just remove "/life_tap,glyph=1" from 3_13_55 actions.
We've been adding support for various raid events (boss (in)vulnerability, stuns, movement, damage, boss-casting requiring kick/silence/etc).... It is not complete, so we haven't made it official.
That sounds GREAT! So basically, we will be able to customize boss fights? I expect crit will be much more valuable for realistic fights, I am really looking forward to see some numbers.
I've been playing with this simulation as I've been getting back into my warlock lately. I have always been in love with raiding destruction and now all I can do is sit and theorycraft about it. I ran some tests with a custom built destruction spec that gets about 7300DPS. I didn't try to rip anyone off, so if this spec is pretty much exactly what yours look like I'm sorry. Here is my config file:
The only thing I really played around with was the "life_tap,glyph=1" and just regular life_tap, I found that you lose around...500dps or some crazy stuff in this simulation with just adding that glyph=1, so i decided to just leave it when you're stuck on a 1.5-ish second area. As you can see he still gains 46122.8!
well.. scale factors with movements:
Scale Factors:
.....
Is not "alpha" version, but already interesting.
And DPS (much more interesting )
Just so I understand: are these figures just from scale factor changes, or do you make use of the "movement" implementation described by dedmonwakeen earlier?
I'm also curious to know whether there will be a way we can add Corruption into the destro rotations - but only under conditions of movement. For example, if having to move for 5 seconds or so - if Conflag is on cooldown and there is no need to Tap or refresh a Curse, then chucking up a Corruption would be worthwhile, even if it's not applied in a stationary fight.
Just so I understand: are these figures just from scale factor changes, or do you make use of the "movement" implementation described by dedmonwakeen earlier?
I'm also curious to know whether there will be a way we can add Corruption into the destro rotations - but only under conditions of movement. For example, if having to move for 5 seconds or so - if Conflag is on cooldown and there is no need to Tap or refresh a Curse, then chucking up a Corruption would be worthwhile, even if it's not applied in a stationary fight.
I just updated simcraft by svn, where new files:
opt_raid_mov.smcraft
I am a bit surprised by those scaling factors... for the 0/13/58 spec, haste becomes nearly worthless when including movement? I would try slighty different movement times, say 30 +- 5 secs cooldown, duration 3 +- 2 secs duration and see if this stays the same. Perhaps we are accidently at a certain threshold.
I'm also curious to know whether there will be a way we can add Corruption into the destro rotations - but only under conditions of movement. For example, if having to move for 5 seconds or so - if Conflag is on cooldown and there is no need to Tap or refresh a Curse, then chucking up a Corruption would be worthwhile, even if it's not applied in a stationary fight.
It is already added, via Warlock_Filler.simcraft - so if you simulate movement (for example, include opt_raid_mov.simcraft , as Injez did) you will see in your report that corruption was used (and even one CoA for finish of fight when CoD has <90sec)
Originally Posted by Seleyana
I am a bit surprised by those scaling factors... for the 0/13/58 spec, haste becomes nearly worthless when including movement?
That was probably some unlucky RNG on his run, seeing as lag also scale as zero. My test runs show something like :
So basically haste has increased value in movement, since lot of those spells where haste has no significant effect, like instas on gcd (LT, curses etc) are used while moving.
Spirit has decreased value to what we would theoretically expect only from its +spellpower effect (43% with fel armor and kings), since we use most LTs during runinng, so no saving on gcds due to reduced number of needed LTs.
Injez, did you use "smooth_rng=1" when you run that simulation? It can significantly help to eliminate variations in RNG numbers with small number of iterations.
05/27/09, 8:18 PM
+Timeline&chts=000000,20&dummy=dummy.png)
++flare_of_the_heavens,000000,4,0,15|t++68+(4.41sec)++judgement_of_wisdom,000000,5,0,15|t++15+(19.97sec)++life_tap,000000,6,0,15&chtt=Warlock_T8_03_13_55|Up-Times+and+Procs+(300sec)&chts=000000,20&dummy=dummy.png)
)
