SimulationCraft for Warlocks (4.0.3a numbers at 80 and 85) - Page 66

Yoblad · 06/10/09, 12:22 AM

Only if you're moving

nenad · 06/10/09, 5:35 AM

Originally Posted by Oth

Well, snowflakes aside:

I'd like to model a 0/13/58 build that replaces SL/ISL with Bane. In other words, it needs to cast SB as part of the normal destro rotation every 30s. (Yes, it loses DPS. 'How much' is what I want to determine.)

I'm pretty sure that it's not sufficient for me to squeeze in 'shadow_bolt,time_to_die>=30' as an action at the bottom of the priority list (at least not in a way that properly balances Incin/SB casting). Am I reading the source correctly in that it currently does not support doing something like the druid's 'eclipse_left' flag to only cast an SB when the buff is not up and the time left is <2.5s?

Correct.

There is option that could be used for this purpose, "shadow_bolt,isb_trigger=1" , but it was not working since it expected "old" ISB.

It is fixed in new version of simulator, so you can check with it when it gets published (or compile code).

Another issue with simulating that scenario is that when you want to simulate raid environment you would use "optimal_raid=1", and that include ISB at 100% (as perma buff).

One way to estimate what you wanted is to do it with "optimal_raid=0":
1) first get usual DPS for 0_13_58, with "optimal_raid=1"
2) then get DPS for "optimal_raid=0", and calculate ratio of those two (rough estimate how much you gain from raid buffs)
3) now change "talents=" option for 0_13_58 to include ISB, still keep "optimal_raid=0", and put "/shadow_bolt,isb_trigger=1" somewhere near start of "actions+=" and get new (lower) DPS

You will get reduction of DPS due to using shadow bolt as DPS3-DPS2, for non-raid environment (I around 90 DPS, but that was not for standard 0_13_58 gear, but for my gear with "armory=" option).

Then you multiply it with raito of DPS2/DPS1, to get estimate of how much it would reduce your DPS in raid situations. That is not 100% correct approach, but it will give you close enough number. In my case ratio was around 1.65, and estimated DPS loss due to using shadow bolt every 10sec or so was about 150 DPS (again, may be more for BiS 0_13_58)

nenad · 06/10/09, 5:46 AM

BTW, in above numbers I removed Cataclysm and Aftermath and put points in Bane - but same approach can be used for removing points from SL/ISL, and in fact it gets almost same DPS loss.

dedmonwakeen · 06/10/09, 8:06 AM

Originally Posted by nenad

BTW, in above numbers I removed Cataclysm and Aftermath and put points in Bane - but same approach can be used for removing points from SL/ISL, and in fact it gets almost same DPS loss.

You can turn off raid buffs one at a time:
optimal_raid=1
improved_shadow_bolt=0

pfooti · 06/10/09, 4:35 PM

I actually do the opposite, which probably takes more text to actually enter, but gives me the full list. That is, I have a header (I stuck it in my custom Warlock_Gear.simcraft file) that looks like this:

optimal_raid=0
bloodlust=1
battle_shout=1
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
arcane_brilliance=1
divine_spirit=1
fortitude=1
improved_divine_spirit=1
improved_moonkin_aura=1
leader_of_the_pack=1
mana_spring=1
mark_of_the_wild=1
moonkin_aura=1
replenishment=1
strength_of_earth=1
totem_of_wrath=1
trueshot_aura=1
unleashed_rage=1
windfury_totem=1
wrath_of_air=1
blood_frenzy=1
improved_scorch=1
improved_shadow_bolt=1
master_poisoner=1
savage_combat=1
winters_chill=1
master_poisoner=1
faerie_fire=1
misery=1
earth_and_moon=1
crypt_fever=1
mana_spring=1
judgement_of_wisdom=1

That is, I believe, all the flags for raid buffs that you can turn on. I'm only posting it here because I was unable to find this comprehensive list anywhere handy and had to manually look through the CPP code to figure out what flags were being looked for. Note that (like the scorch thing) there are some buffs that are kind of overlappy, but others are omitted (I wasn't able to find reference to ebon plague or imp faerie fire, but there's misery and earth_and_moon instead) so you'll want to make sure you hit the flags right.

Having this setup makes it really easy for me to run more realistic simulations - like many of us, my guild's 25-man comps are often skewed in weird ways (we often don't have a mage, boomkin, spriest, unholy DK), even moreso for 10-man raids.

gregorian · 06/11/09, 12:21 AM

From PlayerOptions - simulationcraft - Google Code

I noticed that that the 3% haste multiplier and 3% damage multiplier buffs have not been implemented for simcraft; swift retribution/improved moonkin form and ferocious inspiration/sanctified retribution respectively.

1.The global damage multiplier of fer insp/sanct ret might not affect the spec rankings or stat scalars but AFAIK, the 3% global haste multiplier stacks with wrath of air, or 5% spell haste multiplier. Both (+dmg and +haste) buffs will have substantive effects on scalar values. Is there an eta on their implementation?

2.BoW appears to be documented as unimplemented but BoW is showing up on mana gain charts in the html outputs. However, disabling BoW via optimal_raid=0 followed by blessing_of_wisdom=0 and mana_spring=0 does not cause any dps change..nor does it stop appearing in the html output charts..what gives? Is it present or not? If it is, why can't I disable it?

3.BoK is also noted to be unimplemented. Again, I am unsure if it has in fact been so but just not updated as such on the variables page. Again, I tried disabling it with blessing_of_kings=0 but no dps change, so either it was never in effect in the first place or there's a problem with toggling it like BoW.

ps, I am running default published gear.simcraft files but running it with optimal_raid=0 to isolate the respective buffs, @30k itrns. I came to the conclusion that 1&3 most likely dont exist yet in the calculations because disabling them has no effect on dps. 2 on the other hand is problematic because while disabling it has no effect on dps, it appears that it cant even be disabled (according to html outputs), so is it not coded or is the disabling command not working?

• Zakalwe · 06/11/09, 1:12 AM

That page is referring to the fact that the paladin class is not implemented in simcraft yet. The buffs you're talking about are.

duhwhat · 06/11/09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Menestheus

Either go Affliction and deal with the lower DPS on destro-centric fights or tell your mages to suck it up and cast Scorch.

This post Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers suggests that a single mage maintaining Scorch (when glyphed) loses 240-255 dps based on spec. The majority of this damage comes from losing a major glyph (185-200) DPS. The DPS loss of actually casting Scorch is listed as 55 dps. If this is the DPS lost from a single mage performing a duty that multiple mages can perform (excluding the ramp up time, which is where the glyph is most important, and unfortunately where I don't see data) the individual loss diminishes further. As nenad's calculations suggest, even a best case scenario of ~100 dps lost for the "ISB/Chaos Bolt" spec and buff maintenance indicate that it is better for even a single mage to cast unglyphed Scorch than it is for a warlock to maintain ISB as a Chaos Bolt spec.

Mayorsayer · 06/11/09, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Menestheus

Either go Affliction and deal with the lower DPS on destro-centric fights or tell your mages to suck it up and cast Scorch.

Or go 0/55/16 and buff the raid with more SP and keep ISB debuff up. Win/win

krisp · 06/16/09, 10:43 AM

Demonic pact>imp demonic tactics

No one argued with you on this. The demo spec without DP isn't there because you'd want it over the DP one, it's there in case you're a demo fan and you already have a totem of wrath/DP effect in the raid. If you have the spellpower and the right conditions, of course DP is totally superior.
And you should work on your explanations, you're confusing us all.

Kaubel · 06/16/09, 11:56 AM

Find something else to discuss.

• bartolimu · 06/16/09, 12:03 PM

For the love of fuck you goddamn idiots, you've invoked the wrath of Kaubel. May God have mercy on your souls.

Once again, I need to remind you morons that if someone posts a bunch of useless idiotic shit you're better off reporting them for being an idiot rather than dragging shit out into a half-page of crap. Pull your heads out of your useless asses or this thread WILL go away permanently.

Rhadamanthis · 06/17/09, 3:43 PM

In the past week I've been writing a mod that lets you plug in the scaling values obtained from simulationcrafts just like the ones in this post, and once those are saved, it displays the dps gain of the tooltipped item in the tooltip itself.

If you want to take a look at it, you can find it at RhadaTip. As soon as I get enough posts to open a thread myself, I'll open one in the addons forum and come back to your every questions!

• Zakalwe · 06/17/09, 3:46 PM

Kinda like Pawn?

tusaki · 06/18/09, 7:20 AM

Hodir: just normal destruction is fine, I don't think you'll get that much more (if at all) by going shadowbolt.

Vezax: Probably something like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...0&version=9947

Its basically a demonology build which uses the imp, without the felguard and mana feed. The reason for this being that the imp benefits from standing in a crash (!) and regens mana normally . Also, this means that you can use the shadowbolt glyph and soul fire (cheap spell, mana wise! (9% base mana, compared to 17% for shadow bolt and 14% for incinerate, 7% chaos bolt, 17% immolate)).

tbh, I got a vezax hard mode kill (25 man) being just destruction with a twist. (took points from the mana regeneration and put them in affliction / improved curse of weakness because our arms warrior complained he couldn't get the 5 points in improved demoralizing shout and reach his 'must have' talent points). Wanded the last bit of vezax down

.

tusaki · 06/18/09, 8:02 AM

I also forgot something. Master demonologist with the imp only improves soul fire. So using a felguard might be best. And if the mana efficiency is a problem as liteurple is suggesting, then meh.... destruction might be the best way after all.

Diogenetic · 06/18/09, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Tinava

For reference, PTR Patch 3.2 Notes. Notice the fire and brimstone change/nerf.

EDIT: I'm curious as to how this will affect DPS, in combination with the Empowered Imp change. Will it be a wash?

It looks as though their intention is to reduce pvp damage while keeping pve dps about the same. I would not expect it
to have any significant impact on viability of the spec.

Grobyc · 06/18/09, 3:57 PM

I agree, it'll probably be more or less about the same. It seems like they are encouraging destro to use the imp even more than before.

There is also the lifetap glyph change, is this going to change the glyph set up or is it designed for affliction?

gherkin · 06/18/09, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tinava

For reference, PTR Patch 3.2 Notes. Notice the fire and brimstone change/nerf.

EDIT: I'm curious as to how this will affect DPS, in combination with the Empowered Imp change. Will it be a wash?

I took a damage report from simcraft for my gear and this 5% from two spells resulted in a 32dps loss from Chaos Bolt and 156dps loss from incinerate.

Taking out Empowered imp resulted in a net dps loss of 119 for 20% crit bonus. I'm not very good with probability, but considering my lowest crit rate was 42%, there is a 38% chance that my spells did not crit with the old Empowered Imp proc. I am of the opinion that this will result in at least a wash, if not a net increase.

Warlockx · 06/18/09, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by gherkin

I took a damage report from simcraft for my gear and this 5% from two spells resulted in a 32dps loss from Chaos Bolt and 156dps loss from incinerate.

Taking out Empowered imp resulted in a net dps loss of 119 for 20% crit bonus. I'm not very good with probability, but considering my lowest crit rate was 42%, there is a 38% chance that my spells did not crit with the old Empowered Imp proc. I am of the opinion that this will result in at least a wash, if not a net increase.

Assuming your imp will not die. In a fight like Mimiron hard Mode 1 Napalm hit will kill your imp and thus kill your DPS.

Tinava · 06/18/09, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by glaci

And it will also be interesting to see if the LifeTap glyph change pushes it back into the top 3 for Destro.

There is that. But also, it may be something to look at with 3/13/55 being a better spec choice than 0/13/58, due to the lifetap glyph change and the changes to replenishment. This may also affect our optimal gear choices, since we won't have to gear for hit as much.

Originally Posted by gherkin

I took a damage report from simcraft for my gear and this 5% from two spells resulted in a 32dps loss from Chaos Bolt and 156dps loss from incinerate.

Taking out Empowered imp resulted in a net dps loss of 119 for 20% crit bonus. I'm not very good with probability, but considering my lowest crit rate was 42%, there is a 38% chance that my spells did not crit with the old Empowered Imp proc. I am of the opinion that this will result in at least a wash, if not a net increase.

Those are live numbers, correct, not sims for the 3.2 patch? Because if so, you'll have changes with empowered imp proccing the same amount of time, but giving us a guaranteed crit every time.

• Zakalwe · 06/18/09, 5:11 PM

Initial tests show the destro changes being a DPS increase, about 2-3%.

Rhadamanthos · 06/18/09, 5:13 PM

This while using Life Tap Glyph?

• Zakalwe · 06/18/09, 5:15 PM

No, that's the 0/13/58 spec/profile, so unrelated to the life tap glyph change.

Shayo · 06/18/09, 5:18 PM

That means the change to the formula for haunt on the Affliction thread should be (and needed updating anyway because it counted scorch as 10%)

(1+0.15(Shadow Mastery))
*1.13(CoE)
*1.03(Malediction)
*1.03(Sanctified Retribution)
*(1+0.12*0.35) (Death's Embrace) //1.4365424111
*( (645+753)/2(base) = 699 + (1291.7142=(1.5/3.5*spell power(3014)))) //1990.71428571
*(1+0.26(base)+.05(shadow bolt) + 0.03(heart))

2667.5571

cast time: 1.5s*(1/(1+Haste)) = 1.5*(1/1+0.15+0.0421+0.0183) = 1.20s / 1.12s
damage / cast time = 2381.7474

*using info such as spell power and crit chance from the Affliction thread's first post