Actually I think you're taking a point from Molten Core there, not Master Summoner. I would have thought that giving up ~15% MC uptime for 2% crit would be a bad trade-off, but it looks I might be wrong on that. When I run the sim with this spec it does come out slightly ahead. For 30k iterations I got 6049 with your spec vs 6032 from the first spec.
Sorry, I was confused. I kept going over this a few times and wondering where the exta point was going.The OP build doesn't have a point mana feed and I didn't notice. I think for the OPs 0/41/30 spec one point should be moved out of master summoner into mana feed. I agree that the extra point in MC is debatable, and that wasn't my point, just an oversight.
It seems to me on a common sense level that another point in Demonic Tactics would be better than Demonic Empowerment, but we all know how common sense compares to reality.
Justification: ~80% of the Felguard's damage is white
20% haste is up 25% of the time.
You're increasing his damage by 4% (.8 * .05).
Say on a high estimate he makes up 30% of your damage in a fight. This puts Demonic Empowerment at a 1.2% dps increase.
Let's be generous and round up to 2%, which is WAY too high, to compensate for stacking it with cooldowns.
Now look at Demonic Tactics. By itself it increases pet dps by 2% (0.6% total dps increase). I would presume that 2% personal crit is greater than a 1.4% dps increase, and even if it isn't we highballed the hell out of the DEmpowerment estimate.
Feel free to make me look like an idiot if this is way off.
It seems to me on a common sense level that another point in Demonic Tactics would be better than Demonic Empowerment, but we all know how common sense compares to reality.
Justification: ~80% of the Felguard's damage is white
20% haste is up 25% of the time.
You're increasing his damage by 4% (.8 * .05).
Say on a high estimate he makes up 30% of your damage in a fight. This puts Demonic Empowerment at a 1.2% dps increase.
Let's be generous and round up to 2%, which is WAY too high, to compensate for stacking it with cooldowns.
Now look at Demonic Tactics. By itself it increases pet dps by 2% (0.6% total dps increase). I would presume that 2% personal crit is greater than a 1.4% dps increase, and even if it isn't we highballed the hell out of the DEmpowerment estimate.
Feel free to make me look like an idiot if this is way off.
I must agree with you, it does sound better at first, but since 1% crit is like 42 crit rating or so, those 2% would be 84 crit rating which would be equal to about 50dps increase, Warlocks will hopefully in general be doing around 5k dps, so 50 is 1%, so it would be more or less equal. I'm interested in what simcraft shows though! Let's wait and see.
I'm not sure if Zakalwe has some newer code for the simulator, so hopefully he can run them using all the same settings and code to be sure it's a fair comparison. These are using the latest version off of SVN though.
I do have some new code for decimation - it needs to be cleaned up a bit before I can commit to SVN, but after testing on PTR I decided weaving 1xFiller-1xSF is viable enough to warrant being modeled. Doing so results in around a 50DPS increase for all three demo specs.
Testing with this latest code shows 3/5 DT, 0/1 DE and 2/3 MC is best for 0/41/30, while 2/5 DT, 0/1 DE and 3/3 MC is best for 0/40/31.
I do have some new code for decimation - it needs to be cleaned up a bit before I can commit to SVN, but after testing on PTR I decided weaving 1xFiller-1xSF is viable enough to warrant being modeled. Doing so results in around a 50DPS increase for all three demo specs.
Testing with this latest code shows 3/5 DT, 0/1 DE and 2/3 MC is best for 0/41/30, while 2/5 DT, 0/1 DE and 3/3 MC is best for 0/40/31.
could you please edit your first post to include this?
Did you try taking 1p from demonic power and putting it in eradication aswell?
Also, Zakalwe, the 5/13/53 spec seems a bit odd to me. All the other specs are using a hit capped played, whilst this one isn't, yet the stats have barely improved (just a little crit). How would that this 05/13/53 spec perform with a hitcapped player (the same player as used on the other tests)?
could you please edit your first post to include this?
Done, and it's all been committed to SVN as well. In addition to the minor spec changes, it turns out 0/41/30 and 0/40/31 should both drop corruption from their rotation below 35%.
How many iterations did you run? I've compared these several times with 10k+ iterations, and the one with 2/2 aftermath tends to come out on top by just 3-6 DPS. Such tiny differences are generally too small to be conclusive unless you run 100k+ iterations anyway - all it means is it doesn't really matter where you put that last point, you get to pick.
Originally Posted by Naforce
Did you try taking 1p from demonic power and putting it in eradication aswell?
I've tried that, it's a loss.
Originally Posted by Naforce
Also, Zakalwe, the 5/13/53 spec seems a bit odd to me. All the other specs are using a hit capped played, whilst this one isn't, yet the stats have barely improved (just a little crit). How would that this 05/13/53 spec perform with a hitcapped player (the same player as used on the other tests)?
One thing to keep in mind regarding the Decimation weaving is that it assumes a certain range from the boss, meaning you can't do it during Metamorphosis if you also want to be using Immolation, which the sim doesn't currently account for. So the Meta spec is being slightly overvalued in the currently posted results.
I think destro's problem is that it's got all its best talents in the first half of the tree. Other trees can easily dip into destro and get a lot of good stuff, but if you decide to go deep in destro you're left with 18-20 points and nothing good to do with them.
I think destro's problem is that it's got all its best talents in the first half of the tree. Other trees can easily dip into destro and get a lot of good stuff, but if you decide to go deep in destro you're left with 18-20 points and nothing good to do with them.
Exactly, its rather worrying that most other specs rely on Destro talents to be competative and can't do so off they're own back. If anything is changed <20 points in destro, all other specs would see a big drop. Let's pray for nothing to happen.
You're using the melee hit rating conversion - for spell hit it's 26.23. All the hit-capped profiles are doing is trading 75 crit rating for 75 hit rating - this is shown in the profile definitions in my original post.
You're using the melee hit rating conversion - for spell hit it's 26.23. All the hit-capped profiles are doing is trading 75 crit rating for 75 hit rating - this is shown in the profile definitions in my original post.
I was indeed. Very stupid of me. Yet why do that trade? Feels like the specs actually spending points on 3% hit doesn't gain as much as they should. The trade-off should be for a mix of haste/spellpower or crit/spellpower, not just one of the 3. Let's say I have gemmed 81 hit rating (3 rigid dragons eye = 81 hit rating), and say I'm going to use 5/13/53. I would surely gem 96 spellpower in the same places. I believe using that as the optimum exchange and a mix of crit/sp or haste/sp as a general exchange would mean a more fair dps output. Even though it's not 10000dps difference, it sure is a little change between 75 crit and 100 sp or whatever you might get out of not gearing away hit for crit.
Just to elaborate on the hit rating issue: The default simulationcraft gear profiles are set up assuming 3% hit from talents and 3% hit from raid buffs. If a certain spec doesn't have those 3% hit from talents, they need to pick up an extra 3% from gear without changing the total iLvl cost. I've chosen to do that by sacrificing crit, but I could have done it by sacrificing something even less useful, like int. I chose crit beacuse it seems a pretty realistic stat to be able to shift around.
Keep in mind that we're talking about best-in-slot gear here. At least for pre-3.1 gear, if you had the best gear you would never be gemming for hit even if you needed 14% from gear, so your gemming argument is moot. And more generally, since spell power is so valuable, top gear sets with 14% hit and top gear sets with 11% hit will tend to have about the same amount of spell power.
Just to elaborate on the hit rating issue: The default simulationcraft gear profiles are set up assuming 3% hit from talents and 3% hit from raid buffs. If a certain spec doesn't have those 3% hit from talents, they need to pick up an extra 3% from gear without changing the total iLvl cost. I've chosen to do that by sacrificing crit, but I could have done it by sacrificing something even less useful, like int. I chose crit beacuse it seems a pretty realistic stat to be able to shift around.
Keep in mind that we're talking about best-in-slot gear here. At least for pre-3.1 gear, if you had the best gear you would never be gemming for hit even if you needed 14% from gear, so your gemming argument is moot. And more generally, since spell power is so valuable, top gear sets with 14% hit and top gear sets with 11% hit will tend to have about the same amount of spell power.
I can't agree with those stats being all best-in-slots. Look at me. I have barely any best-in-slots, yet i still have over 2k spellpower, I am ally so I get the draenei buff meaning 4% hit from raid. I can directly say that the turning tide with the best sp enchant would grant me an extra +65 spellpower. There are lots of things i can upgrade to; leggings of the wanton spellcaster and the helm from malygos25, the circle of polarity, surplus limb, rings, trinkets and so on. I just don't see how those stats would be even close to all best-in-slot gear. They are more like my stats, + something here, - something there, all in all not much better at all from my current stats. And I am far from having all best-in-slots.
Besides, the gemming argument just proved the stat exchange. Also, crit being the talent we gain the least from, we would rather choose haste-gear when not gearing for hit.
Just as a conclusion, my issue is based in that the stats seem too low. Seeing as all the specs scale differently with stats, that might change things.
Excuse me for asking, but where can I download the latest release for the simcraft? I checked simulationcraft - Google Code where I can see the updates but I can't seem to find a way to get the latest release.
I tend to agree here, and this is actually one of my gripes with Simcraft;
No sane Warlock should have 500 crit and 500 haste, because it simply is far from ideal. Crit isn't a good enough stat to have as much of as you have haste. In fact for most specs it'd be more reasonable to gear for 500 spirit than for 500 crit.
*perhaps* it could be made so that Simcraft would automatically gear slightly towards the scale factors of each spec.
Something along the lines of; simcraft checks the scale factors on default caster_T7, simcraft takes an average stat value and multiplies each stat in the caster_T7 with each stat's value relative to the average stat value.
This would take much longer to parse but could give some slightly more accurate/interesting results.
I tend to agree here, and this is actually one of my gripes with Simcraft;
No sane Warlock should have 500 crit and 500 haste, because it simply is far from ideal. Crit isn't a good enough stat to have as much of as you have haste. In fact for most specs it'd be more reasonable to gear for 500 spirit than for 500 crit.
*perhaps* it could be made so that Simcraft would automatically gear slightly towards the scale factors of each spec.
Something along the lines of; simcraft checks the scale factors on default caster_T7, simcraft takes an average stat value and multiplies each stat in the caster_T7 with each stat's value relative to the average stat value.
This would take much longer to parse but could give some slightly more accurate/interesting results.
It is very easy in simcraft to go into the base gear file and set it up to run the sims how ever you like. I set it up with my current gear so I get acurate readings for myself and to see what my potential DPS is in my current gearing. It requires all of 10 min on your part if that to plunk in your own numbers.
One thing to keep in mind regarding the Decimation weaving is that it assumes a certain range from the boss, meaning you can't do it during Metamorphosis if you also want to be using Immolation, which the sim doesn't currently account for. So the Meta spec is being slightly overvalued in the currently posted results.
In the testing I've done, at point-blank range the travel time of Shadow Bolt is short enough that you can maintain a SB - SF - SB - SF rotation easier than a SB - SB - SF - SF rotation at max range. There are many fights where this wouldn't be practical, but it does seem to work.
I've also been working with a 'selfish' Meta spec that drops Demon Pact for more personal DPS:
There are a 2 points in Demo that could move around to somewhere potentially better, but I'd be curious if someone who's Simcraft-Fu is greater than mine could run it through. It's definitely a personal DPS boost over the 0/56/15 spec that's been worked with so far, I wonder if it picks up enough juice to put it ahead of 0/41/30.
02/28/09, 12:20 AM
