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Old 04/30/09, 4:18 PM   #1321
CaelLock
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Weerea View Post
That 145-169 is affected by spellpower (not sure on the coeff though) try it out on the target dummy, with immolate on the target - I get something like 700 extra damage on incinerate with immolate up. Still, these changes seem to make destro more complicated while not providing much (if any) dps increase.
I simply do not see this. Just ran a test on a dummy on live, and the data is below

Data

1935 SP, no proccing gear, no Fel Armor
Incinerate Tooltip : 698-812 + 174-203 with Immolate on target (note: tooltip includes contribution from % scaling talents like Emberstorm, but not spell power)

First 10 non-crit Incinerates w/o Immolate
2701
2707
2796
2722
2741
2785
2721
2695
2701
2690
Average - 2725.9

First 10 non-crit Incinerates w/ Immolate
2936
2915
2963
2942
2939
2876
2997
2913
2957
2950
Average 2938.8

Difference of 212.9

We would expect a difference of 188.5

So either the Spell Power coefficient for the extra Incinerate damage is .0126, or it is 0 and the difference is due to statistical noise of the small sample. I am inclined to believe the latter.

I'm hoping they just worded the F&B badly, otherwise this whole mini-patch is nothing but a hearty Deep Destro nerf.

Edit: Included data.

Last edited by CaelLock : 04/30/09 at 4:33 PM.

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Old 04/30/09, 4:31 PM   #1322
Malathar
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Weerea View Post
That 145-169 is affected by spellpower (not sure on the coeff though) try it out on the target dummy, with immolate on the target - I get something like 700 extra damage on incinerate with immolate up. Still, these changes seem to make destro more complicated while not providing much (if any) dps increase.
Immolate never has and most likely never will increase incinerate damage by 700. Not even crit damage.

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Old 04/30/09, 5:07 PM   #1323
Warlockx
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Altar of Storms
Originally Posted by Nartas View Post
Conflagrate updated: Consumes an Immolate or Shadowflame effect on the enemy target to instantly deal damage equal to 12 seconds of your Immolate, or 8 seconds of your Shadowflame.
Did you notice that it used to be 15 seconds of your immolate, so they clipped 3 seconds off it and that will be another damage nerf to conflag damage.

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Old 04/30/09, 5:13 PM   #1324
pghiocel
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Warlockx View Post
Did you notice that it used to be 15 seconds of your immolate, so they clipped 3 seconds off it and that will be another damage nerf to conflag damage.
Conflag was already hotfixed to be caculated based on 70% of the immolate cast (so 10.5 out of 15 seconds), so this would actually be a slight buff back up to 80% (12/15).

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Old 04/30/09, 5:17 PM   #1325
matthewseidl
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Emerald Dream
Originally Posted by Warlockx View Post
Did you notice that it used to be 15 seconds of your immolate, so they clipped 3 seconds off it and that will be another damage nerf to conflag damage.
Not necessarily. It used to be 70% of 15 seconds of immolate. Now we've lost 15% from F&B, but gained 2.5sec of immo damage to conflag.

0.7 * (Immo * 1.15) = 0.805 * immo

Immo * 12 / 15 = 0.8 immo

So conflag damage should remain about the same. It might be a dps loss to cast it on cooldown though, now that it consumes the immo effect.

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Old 04/30/09, 5:29 PM   #1326
matthewseidl
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Emerald Dream
Originally Posted by HordakIC View Post
If you count the glyph change it's probably a damage loss considering you are now consuming the last tick or 2 from Immolate.
I don't think we can make any real guess till we see how F&B actually works. If its 30% to just the bonus damage, then I think its a net dps loss. If its something else, then we really don't know. I'm eagerly awaiting the ptr so we can go blow up training dummies and get the real numbers to plug into simulationcraft.

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Old 04/30/09, 5:44 PM   #1327
Odeen
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Cenarius
To quote GC:
"It looks to me like you are just multiplying the "damage" of Incinerate not the "bonus damage". I know this business gets jargony. Consider it like this: Incinerate does X damage. If cast on a target debuffed by Immolate, it does 125% of X. If cast on a target debuffed by Immolate with Fire and Brimstone, it does 155% of X. It's confusing because the Incinerate tooltip is trying to be too smart and tell you the additional damage done, not the multiplier.

Say Incinerate does 1000 damage. With Immolate, it does 1250 damage. Talented with Fire and Brimstone and Immolate it does 1550 damage. So the talent could just say "Incinerate hits 24% harder."

We'll try and come up with text which makes this more clear."

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Old 04/30/09, 5:45 PM   #1328
PadLock
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Uldum
delete

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Old 04/30/09, 6:03 PM   #1329
Illijilli
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Nap View Post
Sorry if this seems newbish, but didn't the Conflag Glyph USED to make Conflag no longer consume the Immolate on the target? If so, is that gone now so we have to reapply Immo after using Conflag?
Yes, thus conflag is back to clipping the end off your immolate. The 10% bonus to the next 3 destro spells cast should compensate for the damage lost by clipping. I'm slightly bummed that you will need to waste one of those charges on the new immolate. What would be interesting is if they some how managed to have the 10% propogate through to the entire spell (the initial damage as well as the entire dot's duration) but I highly doubt this is the case.

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Old 04/30/09, 6:39 PM   #1330
Netfelix
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by Illijilli View Post
Yes, thus conflag is back to clipping the end off your immolate. The 10% bonus to the next 3 destro spells cast should compensate for the damage lost by clipping. I'm slightly bummed that you will need to waste one of those charges on the new immolate. What would be interesting is if they some how managed to have the 10% propogate through to the entire spell (the initial damage as well as the entire dot's duration) but I highly doubt this is the case.
Well, if it increases the Immolate damage by 10% which then increase the confalg damage by 10% ....

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Old 04/30/09, 6:48 PM   #1331
Illijilli
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Netfelix View Post
Well, if it increases the Immolate damage by 10% which then increase the confalg damage by 10% ....
Sadly it doesnt, the 10% only affects the initial hit of the immolate, which has no affect on the subsequent conflag at all.

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Old 04/30/09, 7:22 PM   #1332
krisp
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Draenor (EU)
Sadly it doesnt, the 10% only affects the initial hit of the immolate, which has no affect on the subsequent conflag at all.
How do you know that? It's simple logic that the 10% increased damage should also affect immolate's dot. Which, in turn, affects conflag's damage.

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Old 04/30/09, 7:55 PM   #1333
HellMuT
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Spirestone
Some info on how Incinerate works from GC

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Conflag Change Clarification

Incinerate's current damage bonus is not flat. It literally takes the damage done, multiplies that by 25% if Immolate is present, and adds it to the base damage. The talent changes that bonus from 25% to 55% (plus 30%).

The damage from the new Conflag glyph should affect dot damage. It is just a proc with charges.

Some of the arguments about the 5 sec window or consuming Immolate in general make some decent points, and that is something we will discuss.
So instead of going from 174-203 to 226-263, it should be around 393-446 extra damage.

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Old 04/30/09, 7:57 PM   #1334
Drison
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Warlock
 
Icecrown
delete please.

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Old 05/01/09, 7:02 AM   #1335
Illijilli
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by krisp View Post
How do you know that? It's simple logic that the 10% increased damage should also affect immolate's dot. Which, in turn, affects conflag's damage.

Actually GC just posted that the dot DOES increase 10% aswell, so conflag should also see a 10% increase for all subsequent ones after the first. (assuming you don't miss any conflags)

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