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Old 05/05/09, 2:00 PM   #1396
Soulzar
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Warlock
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Dragones View Post
I think in the end the lifetap glyph will still be better, right now it is such a small difference but you can always lifetap on the move for the buff, but you cannot incinerate on the move.
You can also tap 2x in a row and dps for 40 seconds without a lost GCD during heroisms or trinket procs where you don't want to be required to tap to keep uptime of the glyph.
Is a lost GCD while you have a 500sp buff from a trinket worth it to proc the glyph? Probably, math would tell... however it most certainly diminishes the return you are getting from it. As you stated there is lots of time to tap on the move... so why tap while you don't have to move just to keep the glyph up? The more movement in a fight, the less you gain from spreading your taps out over time just for the glyph.

The glyph is no doubt very strong, but so many are forgetting TBC where a mana pot was more dps than any other pot just because it saved GCDs.

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Old 05/05/09, 2:04 PM   #1397
Pach
Glass Joe
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Azjol-Nerub
Going 13/58 w/o 4pc T7.5 but still with the LT glyph is most likely going to be inferior than 13/58 w/ilvl 226 and Immo glyph even before T8.5 b/c the point of the LT glyph is not to gain an incidental buff at times when it "seems" ok but to effectively spread necessary LTs through out the fight in a manner to keep the buff rolling. If you are already going to be 13/58 with ISL but w/o 4pc T7.5 then I would bet Immo will be better dps, as shown by the simcraft graph for pre-Ulduar gear which has 4pc T7.5 gear assumed and still uses the Immo glyph

*note this is not in response to the dps difference between 3/13/55 and 13/58 at differing gear levels. only in direct response to the above 2 posts which seem to relate to what a good amount of locks will face, ie. that middle ground between 4pc T7.5 and 4pc T8.5(which is basically the important stuff right? where we are actually progressing and not farming)

Last edited by Pach : 05/05/09 at 2:11 PM.

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Old 05/05/09, 5:54 PM   #1398
Mystearica
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Magtheridon
Do iSL procs work on Vezax?

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Old 05/05/09, 5:59 PM   #1399
Silvanaa
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Mystearica View Post
Do iSL procs work on Vezax?
No, they do not.

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Old 05/05/09, 6:56 PM   #1400
Snidelyw
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Proudmoore
What I'm wondering about is 0/13/58 VS 3/13/55 when they both have the glyphs of Incinerate, Immolate, and Conflag, meaning they do not have glyph of life tap and that they both only lifetap as necessary. The simulcraft suggests that 0/13/58 wins because of Improved Soul Leech since with that talent you don't have to waste as much time lifetapping and can spend more time Incinerating. What I am arguing is that since there is so much movement in Ulduar boss fights and since you should be lifetapping while moving, you actually won't waste more time lifetapping as 3/13/55 and the extra hit should win out.

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Old 05/05/09, 7:48 PM   #1401
LordObsidian
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Warlock
 
Spirestone
What I'm wondering about is 0/13/58 VS 3/13/55 when they both have the glyphs of Incinerate, Immolate, and Conflag, meaning they do not have glyph of life tap and that they both only lifetap as necessary. The simulcraft suggests that 0/13/58 wins because of Improved Soul Leech since with that talent you don't have to waste as much time lifetapping and can spend more time Incinerating. What I am arguing is that since there is so much movement in Ulduar boss fights and since you should be lifetapping while moving, you actually won't waste more time lifetapping as 3/13/55 and the extra hit should win out.
0/13/58 will always win where movement is restricted, for ulduar dual speccing affliction 53/0/18 with 0/13/58 is beneficial i generally switch specs depending on fight.

For e.g. i tend to go affliction for fights like hodir and freya its worth for over all raid dps.

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Old 05/06/09, 6:43 AM   #1402
Asmodaeus
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Executus (EU)
Btw, can someone on the PTR confirm the destro numbers, please?
I don't know how Simcraft implemented the new F&B (stacking additively with Emberstorm?), but it would be nice to determine its behavior on the PTR.

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Old 05/06/09, 7:50 AM   #1403
Natasmai
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Warlocomotif View Post
This is simply wrong. You're doing it wrong!

All specs that exclude improved soul leech spend enough mana to warrant the requirement of lifetapping every 20 seconds (IE: If you lifetap every 20 seconds, you don't regenerate more mana than you consume). That is why Glyph of Life Tap is great for non Soul Leech specs- because you need to do those life taps anyway for the mana, you're not wasting global cooldowns just to get the buff.

This is also why it's not great for replenishment (Improved Soul Leech) specs, because although they do spend a lot of mana, they regenerate a ton of mana through ISL, and as a result do not actually need to lifetap every 20 seconds to sustain their own mana pool. As a result, if they do waste those extra global cooldowns on lifetaps with glyph of lifetap- they lose DPS when compared to glyph of immolate/incinerate + lifetap as needed.
I think you are completely wrong in how you perceived simulationcrafts method of the life tap usage. That isnt to say that you are right or wrong, or that the software is right or wrong, just that you are misinterpreting it. If you look at the google code page's sample output charts, it shows the mana usage of each spec on a graph. You can clearly see the mana spikes when lifetap is used every 20 sec. and you can also clearly see that the only spec that comes close to running out of mana at the end is the Meta spec (Im referring to the T7 output because that is when the glyph is at its best). All other specs maintain a fairly high level of mana at the end of the fight and they are not running down to zero as the boss dies. This is clearly a waste of GCD's since at some point you could stop lifetapping and have enough mana to finish out the last XX seconds of the fight on the mana you currently have. If you were correct and the lifetap is required every 20 seconds to maintain mana usage, then the spikes would stop at some point when you no longer need to maintain a pool. What all of those charts show is that the lifetap is happening every 20 sec because of the buff and not because of the need for mana, if it was a need for mana, the spikes would end somewhere around the final minute I would expect. I think the side effect of the Glyph is that you have a constant mana supply, not the other way around. Either way, it doesnt determine the Glyphs value compared to other Glyphs.

Determining the value of the lifetap glyph should be based on GCD time lost that could be spent casting incinerate and how much extra damage is gained during the 20 sec that the spell power increase is active on you (and likewise how much is gained during the 10 sec you have the 4pcT7 active versus not having 4pcT7 at all). It shouldnt have anything to do with whether the mana is needed or not, the mana will always be needed unless you have iSL and even then you would likely have to lifetap a few times anyway.

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Old 05/06/09, 8:27 AM   #1404
Warlocomotif
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Warlock
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Originally Posted by Natasmai View Post
I think you are completely wrong in how you perceived simulationcrafts method of the life tap usage. That isnt to say that you are right or wrong, or that the software is right or wrong, just that you are misinterpreting it. If you look at the google code page's sample output charts, it shows the mana usage of each spec on a graph. You can clearly see the mana spikes when lifetap is used every 20 sec. and you can also clearly see that the only spec that comes close to running out of mana at the end is the Meta spec (Im referring to the T7 output because that is when the glyph is at its best). All other specs maintain a fairly high level of mana at the end of the fight and they are not running down to zero as the boss dies. This is clearly a waste of GCD's since at some point you could stop lifetapping and have enough mana to finish out the last XX seconds of the fight on the mana you currently have. If you were correct and the lifetap is required every 20 seconds to maintain mana usage, then the spikes would stop at some point when you no longer need to maintain a pool. What all of those charts show is that the lifetap is happening every 20 sec because of the buff and not because of the need for mana, if it was a need for mana, the spikes would end somewhere around the final minute I would expect. I think the side effect of the Glyph is that you have a constant mana supply, not the other way around. Either way, it doesnt determine the Glyphs value compared to other Glyphs.

Determining the value of the lifetap glyph should be based on GCD time lost that could be spent casting incinerate and how much extra damage is gained during the 20 sec that the spell power increase is active on you (and likewise how much is gained during the 10 sec you have the 4pcT7 active versus not having 4pcT7 at all). It shouldnt have anything to do with whether the mana is needed or not, the mana will always be needed unless you have iSL and even then you would likely have to lifetap a few times anyway.
It is actually very interesting that point this out- I went to have another look at the mana consumption because of this. Looking at SampleOutputT7 - simulationcraft - Google Code I'd say the specs that need to lifetap every 20s are 0/40/31, 0/56/15, 3/52/16. It's not so much that they're oom by the end- more so that if they lifetapped every- say- 25 seconds. They would've been OOM. To a lesser degree also 3/13/55- if that spec lifetapped every 30 seconds it would also go OOM.

So, to a large degree the idea that they need to lifetap still holds true. It doesn't hold true for affliction- but the alternatives for affli are pretty much just glyph of corruption- which seriously pales in comparison to the glyphs available to destro.

A good while ago someone posted a massive math formula on the Wow EU forums and called the thread "the theorum of dps"- or something like that. I'll admit straight up- the formula there went way over my head and I didn't pay too much attention to it. Anyway, someone on the Warlock forums did an interpetation of it with a Warlock rotation in mind- he made some errors that were corrected- but his conclusion was actually that it was better to not lifetap every 20 seconds when in decimation range- there was no consideration for going OOM in the formula though. Seeing that several specs are not going entirely OOM, it might be interesting to see how well those specs perform if they lifetap slightly less below 25-35%. I don't *think* this has been tested yet.

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Old 05/06/09, 8:33 AM   #1405
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Actually, Warlocomotif is right, life tapping for the glyph buff would not be worth it if you did not need the mana, at least not for all specs. This is easily verified with a couple of simcraft runs with infinite_mana=1. The only exception (as far as I can tell, without having tried all combinations) is for affliction locks with 4-piece T7, the explanation for which is probably a combination of their high spell power scaling and their relatively "cheap" GCDs.

The reason you see the various profiles not running out of mana in simcraft charts is precisely because they're life tapping more than needed. If we didn't make them life tap for the buff, they'd run out of mana - in other words, their GCDs spent life tapping are not all wasted.

I really don't know where the "life tap every 20 seconds no matter what" idea came from - sure, the simcraft profiles do so, but only because it was the best of several "easy" strategies to implement in the simcraft code. I think the theoretically optimal strategy is not to life tap every 20 seconds for the buff, but rather to spread your life taps equally out across the length of the fight, timing it so you're exactly OOM at time_to_die=0. Implementing this strategy in simcraft is a bit of a challenge, but I'll try it as soon as I have some time on my hands.

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Old 05/06/09, 8:40 AM   #1406
wow2k6
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
Doesn't the glyph lose much of its value if you consider the fights in Ulduar that more or less require a lot of running?

While running you can lifetap twice or more unless you can get out some instants and therefore you can nuke without lifetapping during phases where you don't need to move which leads to a decreased Liftetap Uptime...

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Old 05/06/09, 11:28 AM   #1407
Turbo Moses
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Undead Warlock
 
Ner'zhul
Molson, I'd think that with such severe lack of caster buffs (although I don't know how many casters you have) you might be doing the most for your raid as demonic pact anyway.

As far as your question goes, raid buffs are all across the board (there are haste, spellpower, crit, flat % increases to damage and stats, spirit, etc.) so I think you'll have to be more specific, but I don't think it's hit any harder than other specs. Of course, this is speculation and I'm sure there are differences, but considering that raid buffs are all over the place that it's tough to say. That said, spellpower buffs are gonna do the most for any spec.

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Old 05/06/09, 11:35 AM   #1408
Warlocomotif
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Warlock
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Originally Posted by Turbo Moses View Post
Molson, I'd think that with such severe lack of caster buffs (although I don't know how many casters you have) you might be doing the most for your raid as demonic pact anyway.

As far as your question goes, raid buffs are all across the board (there are haste, spellpower, crit, flat % increases to damage and stats, spirit, etc.) so I think you'll have to be more specific, but I don't think it's hit any harder than other specs. Of course, this is speculation and I'm sure there are differences, but considering that raid buffs are all over the place that it's tough to say. That said, spellpower buffs are gonna do the most for any spec.
It's wrong to say "spellpower buffs are the same accross the board"- and it's wrong because certain talents simply generate more synergy with certain stats. For example; ruin with critical strike rating, empowered imp with critical strike buffs, shadow and flame with spellpower buffs, everlasting affliction with spellpower buffs. While certain other talents decrease the synergy with certain stats (Or rather increase the synergy with all stats but 1) for example; +crit talents reduce the relative value of +crit buffs.

The most important buff (debuff) to have, is easily +13% magic damage taken- after that the spellpower buff/replenishment comes, but nothing really comes close to the 13% magic damage taken. I agree though, you'd probably do most for your raid by speccing demonology (with demonic pact).

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Old 05/06/09, 8:31 PM   #1409
Darkmantle
King Hippo
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Spinebreaker
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
Actually, Warlocomotif is right, life tapping for the glyph buff would not be worth it if you did not need the mana, at least not for all specs. This is easily verified with a couple of simcraft runs with infinite_mana=1. The only exception (as far as I can tell, without having tried all combinations) is for affliction locks with 4-piece T7, the explanation for which is probably a combination of their high spell power scaling and their relatively "cheap" GCDs.

The reason you see the various profiles not running out of mana in simcraft charts is precisely because they're life tapping more than needed. If we didn't make them life tap for the buff, they'd run out of mana - in other words, their GCDs spent life tapping are not all wasted.

I really don't know where the "life tap every 20 seconds no matter what" idea came from - sure, the simcraft profiles do so, but only because it was the best of several "easy" strategies to implement in the simcraft code. I think the theoretically optimal strategy is not to life tap every 20 seconds for the buff, but rather to spread your life taps equally out across the length of the fight, timing it so you're exactly OOM at time_to_die=0. Implementing this strategy in simcraft is a bit of a challenge, but I'll try it as soon as I have some time on my hands.
It is hard to model but I find the optimal way to use the lifetap glyph on movement based fights is to wait til the buff has run out and then immediately lifetap when I have to move. That way there is no lifetap that could have been an incinerate. Modelling this kind of situation based behaviour is always going to be difficult in simcraft though.

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Old 05/06/09, 9:32 PM   #1410
Midra
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Drenden
Originally Posted by Asmodaeus View Post
Btw, can someone on the PTR confirm the destro numbers, please?
I don't know how Simcraft implemented the new F&B (stacking additively with Emberstorm?), but it would be nice to determine its behavior on the PTR.
I went to test this on the PTR, out of curiosity (since from some previous tests of mine, I think incin's glyph and emberstorm stack additively). Unfortunately, as of right now, F&B's incin aspect is not functioning as described in the tooltip.

That is, it's still adding 30% of the base incinerate damage to targets with immolate.
I'll try to do tests when something suggests it has been updated.

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