SimulationCraft for Warlocks (4.0.3a numbers at 80 and 85) - Page 98

Jenren22 · 01/27/10, 9:48 AM

So does the value of spell power vary depending on how many you 'buff' so to speak? I raid 10man so there is only 2 other casters and 3 healers to buff.

I'm just wondering whether I should be simulating my scale factors for a raid, but just for me if that is possible so I can get a better representation of the value of SP and possibly spirit. If that is indeed the case, I would like to know how I can simulate a raid.

My apologies for being off-topic a little here.

Naoe · 01/27/10, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by Madlax

The rDPS spec is calculated in a 8 DPS caster setup with an average scaling value of 1.7 in SP if my memory is right.
It actually includes both SP and Spirit in raid scalings and yes, both of them are higher than haste and crit.
Warlocomotif can give you more details if he finds the time.

I do not believe this for a second. If the rDPS value of SP with 8 ppl with 1.7 SP scaling would mean that a value of 1.7 * 8 * 0.1 = 1.36 would be added to the worth of SP. Are you suggesting that the personal scaling of SP from Demo Warlocks is ~1.7 - 1.36 = 0.34 DPS per SP? That's not realistic. With rDPS scaling included, the value of SP would jump to around 3 dps per SP.

Warlocomotif · 01/27/10, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Naoe

I do not believe this for a second. If the rDPS value of SP with 8 ppl with 1.7 SP scaling would mean that a value of 1.7 * 8 * 0.1 = 1.36 would be added to the worth of SP. Are you suggesting that the personal scaling of SP from Demo Warlocks is ~1.7 - 1.36 = 0.34 DPS per SP? That's not realistic. With rDPS scaling included, the value of SP would jump to around 3 dps per SP.

Erm, the scale factors we used to generate the gear profile indeed used an SP value a little above 3 DPS. We also calculated the rDPS value of spirit, stamina and intellect (demonic knowledge+pet stamina/intellect scaling). This thread provides scale factors that are just for pDPS, which is probably what's confusing you- Madlax is referring to the Compedium thread's gear profile (Afaik).

The value of spirit can make a jump in scale factors if the extra spirit used in the caling test is slightly past a threshold allowing for fewer lifetaps, try run the same test but with 10% fight length difference, see if the same thing happens.

Naoe · 01/27/10, 11:28 AM

Oh, I assumed he meant that simcraft took rDPS into account by default. What others do isn't really related to this matter though.

Regarding spirit causing threshholds, I tried plotting it. It gave a very linear graph, so that's not the issue here. Adding some raid moving events makes it more realistic though and lowers the value of spirit by abit at least, because of free life taps while moving.

Snidelyw · 01/27/10, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by Naoe

Regarding spirit causing threshholds, I tried plotting it. It gave a very linear graph, so that's not the issue here. Adding some raid moving events makes it more realistic though and lowers the value of spirit by abit at least, because of free life taps while moving.

Hmm, I would think that for the effect of spirit on personal dps, the ideal amount would be just enough spirit so that you never have to life tap more than every 20 seconds to keep the buff up and that you end the fight with 0 mana. If you had more spirit than that, the value should decrease to only the spell power component.

• Zakalwe · 01/28/10, 2:50 AM

The duration of the glyph is 40 seconds now, and you're never going to get enough spirit to let you life tap only once every 40 seconds.

Carabar · 01/28/10, 4:22 AM

I am somewhat surprised by the new scalefactors for the 3.3.2 calculation... Have the buffs seriously devalued haste and increased the SP scaling that much?

Warlocomotif · 01/29/10, 10:59 AM

No, boosting the latency has seriously hurt haste. And less casts+second basically means less scale factor for everything. More latency also directly means that the reduction of cast time you get through haste is a less significant part of cast time + latency.

It is honestly flat out disturbing that people respond this strongly to scale factors posted in this thread. The scale factors posted in this thread hold no barring what-so-ever to your own character. You should be running your own simulationcraft, not just copying the scale factors of a simulation that's probably using vastly different gear/duration/lag than your own situation.

dcpwns · 01/29/10, 4:58 PM

I don't believe that the 2h staff Nibelung is being adding into simcraft right.

When I run simcraft with it equipped on my profile the avg hits and even the crits seem awfully low so I went and checked some of our wowmeter logs and the only logs I have atm are failed one but even so in the log the Valk hits for around 1700 and crits for over 2500 or more.

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

That is the log I was looking at and atm simcraft has the valks hitting for about 1200 and 1700 crits.

Also I have all the buffs and debuffs turned on so the only thing I can come up with is simcraft has modeled it wrong or there is a bug.

dwyak · 01/29/10, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by dcpwns

I don't believe that the 2h staff Nibelung is being adding into simcraft right.

When I run simcraft with it equipped on my profile the avg hits and even the crits seem awfully low so I went and checked some of our wowmeter logs and the only logs I have atm are failed one but even so in the log the Valk hits for around 1700 and crits for over 2500 or more.

I am not sure if simcraft handled Nibelung correctly. It suggests that the proc does ~1.5% of my total dmg, which is much lower than the amount I have observed (even before the Val'kyr's dmg buff). I suspect it fails to model passive debuffs (such as isb and shadow embrace) that have a chance to proc as well (thus shadow bolts have a 4% proc chance).

dcpwns · 01/29/10, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by dwyak

I am not sure if simcraft handled Nibelung correctly. It suggests that the proc does ~1.5% of my total dmg, which is much lower than the amount I have observed (even before the Val'kyr's dmg buff). I suspect it fails to model passive debuffs (such as isb and shadow embrace) that have a chance to proc as well (thus shadow bolts have a 4% proc chance).

Even if the percent is right or wrong the damage they do is wrong on simcraft.

Also I always found it weird with the dps increase going to 4pc tier9 to be so minimal. I know 4pc tier 9 is a great 4pc for affliction but I always thought 4pc tier 10 was good enough but on simcraft it shows like a minimal dps gain. Is it modeled right or do we need more feedback on it?

bastetswarrior · 01/30/10, 5:36 PM

Greetings

I'd like some input on the impact of Empowered Imp on personal crit rate. This is for the purpose of extending the SoC vs. RoF discussion to estimate the increased crit rate of the AoE. Running Simcraft with my personal profile, I obtained a bump of about 15% crit rate for Incinerate.

However, I wanted to simulate with aoe only and could use assistance. Either I wasn't implementing the action list to include Seed of Corruption and Rain of Fire or the two are not implemented in Simcraft. I thought all I would have to do is delete the other spell actions and include the line actions+=seed_of_corruption, but only the imp firebolt gets cast.

In other words, with a similar simc file,

warlock=Warlock_T9_00_13_58
origin=http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=13808359
level=80
race=undead
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=9&tal=000000000000000000000000000003220030003000000000000000005203205210331051335230351
glyphs=conflagrate/incinerate/life_tap
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/fire_stone
actions+=/fel_armor
actions+=/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/life_tap,buff_refresh=1
actions+=seed_of_corruption
...(no more actions, gear data etc follows)

results in only firebolt from the imp. Is there something obvious I am doing wrong?

The point of this is to compare the simulated increase against a theoretical analysis as a safety check on the mathematics.

hdante · 02/01/10, 4:19 PM

Hello, is it possible to add results of 56/0/15 to post #1 (i.e. felhunter+dark pact+haunt+ruin) ? I have done informal simulations and I believe there's a potential of 30 to 100 dps increase, when compared to 55/0/16.

Talimar · 02/01/10, 9:31 PM

How do I get simcraft to properly model dark pact? I tried to import a 56/0/15 profile from the wowhead profiler and it would still use life tap in the auto-generated script.

Since the buff itself from life tap is also called life tap I am a bit unsure about the following line:

actions+=/life_tap,buff_refresh=1

hdante · 02/01/10, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Talimar

How do I get simcraft to properly model dark pact? I tried to import a 56/0/15 profile from the wowhead profiler and it would still use life tap in the auto-generated script.

Since the buff itself from life tap is also called life tap I am a bit unsure about the following line:

actions+=/life_tap,buff_refresh=1

Same here, I believe it's a UI bug, because I manually replace all life_tap's with dark_pact and simc simulates as usual, giving the expected results.

actions+=/dark_pact,buff_refresh=1

(Glyph of Life Tap works for both spells)

Kurosuke · 02/02/10, 8:13 AM

Originally Posted by hdante

Same here, I believe it's a UI bug, because I manually replace all life_tap's with dark_pact and simc simulates as usual, giving the expected results.

actions+=/dark_pact,buff_refresh=1

(Glyph of Life Tap works for both spells)

For a while now I have been doing the same thing, but it's quite a hassle having to replace the three occurrences each time you want to make a small adjustment to the simulation.

I have been looking into the source files meaning to alter the default actions list where the lifetaps seem to be hardcoded, but I haven't been able to find it.

Could somebody more fluent with Simcraft tell me whether this is even possible?

Talimar · 02/02/10, 8:34 AM

Yeah it's a bitch but it does seem to work at least. I guess we'll have to wait for the 3.3.2 release.
One more question, does simcraft recognize set bonuses? I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the final report.

Edit:

It appears it does because when I run a sim with 4t9 in destro spec the sim will just crash. If I change to affliction spec or break the 4piece destro, the sim runs fine again.

hdante · 02/02/10, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by hdante

Hello, is it possible to add results of 56/0/15 to post #1 (i.e. felhunter+dark pact+haunt+ruin) ? I have done informal simulations and I believe there's a potential of 30 to 100 dps increase, when compared to 55/0/16.

My results are here, simmulated for 500 seconds and 10000 iterations.

T9 55/0/16: 9891 dps
T9 56/0/15: 9885 dps

So, Life Tap "wins" (actually they're tied at around 0.1% error). It looks like BiS T9 gear has so much spirit that Life Tap is better than Dark Pact. According to simmulation results:

Spell Power = 4020
Spirit = 1136
Dark Pact = 1200 + spell power = 5220 mana
Improved Life Tap = (1490 + 3 * spirit) * 1.2 = 5887 mana

This makes me rethink about Dark Pact (even though my toon benefits more from Dark Pact). It has been stated that "with normal gear" Dark Pact is better, but it's not trivial to use, like Life Tap is.

#!./simc 

warlock=Warlockt9550016
origin="http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=15214160"
level=80
race=undead
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=9&tal=235002200102351025350033115100000000000000000000000000055001005
glyphs=quick_decay/haunt/life_tap
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/spell_stone
actions+=/fel_armor
actions+=/summon_pet,felhunter
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/life_tap,buff_refresh=1
actions+=/wild_magic_potion,bloodlust=1
actions+=/haunt,debuff=1
actions+=/corruption
actions+=/curse_of_agony
actions+=/unstable_affliction
actions+=/haunt
actions+=/drain_soul,health_percentage<=25,interrupt=1
actions+=/shadow_bolt
actions+=/life_tap,mana_percentage<=20,buff_refresh=1,moving=1
actions+=/corruption,time_to_die>=20,moving=1
actions+=/curse_of_agony,time_to_die>=30,moving=1
actions+=/life_tap
head=guldans_hood_of_triumph,stats=282armor_94crit_151sp_116sta_116int_86spi,gems=chaotic_skyflare_12sp_10spi_9sp,enchant=30sp_20crit
neck=cry_of_the_valkyr,stats=57crit_43haste_91sp_65sta_65int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp
shoulders=guldans_shoulderpads_of_triumph,stats=260armor_76crit_124sp_86sta_86int_68spi,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=24sp_15crit
chest=guldans_robe_of_triumph,stats=347armor_94hit_160sp_116sta_116int_94spi,gems=23sp_12sp_10spi_7sp,enchant=10str_10agi_10sta_10int_10spi
waist=belt_of_the_tenebrous_mist,stats=195armor_60haste_114sp_86sta_86int_76spi,gems=12sp_10spi_23sp_23sp_7sp
legs=guldans_leggings_of_triumph,stats=303armor_102crit_86haste_160sp_116sta_116int,gems=23sp_10haste_12sp_7sp,enchant=50sp_20spi
feet=sandals_of_the_mourning_widow,stats=238armor_68haste_124sp_86sta_86int_76spi,gems=12sp_10spi_23sp_7sp,enchant=12crit_12hit
wrists=bindings_of_the_ashen_saint,stats=152armor_49haste_91sp_65sta_65int_57spi,gems=12sp_10spi_5sp,enchant=30sp
hands=guldans_gloves_of_triumph,stats=217armor_68hit_76crit_124sp_86sta_86int,gems=23sp_4crit,enchant=28sp
finger1=lurid_manifestation,stats=53crit_91sp_65sta_65int_50spi,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=23sp
finger2=conductive_seal,stats=55haste_75sp_52sta_48int_39spi,gems=12sp_10spi_5sp,enchant=23sp
trinket1=reign_of_the_dead,stats=168sp,equip=onspelldirectcrit_2117fire_3stack_2.0cd
trinket2=flare_of_the_heavens,stats=120crit,equip=onspellcast_850sp_10%_10dur_45cd
back=lady_liadrins_conviction,stats=182armor_57haste_105sp_74sta_74int_65spi,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=barb_of_tarasque,stats=51hit_57haste_692sp_48sta_65int,gems=12sp_10spi_5sp,enchant=63sp,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max
off_hand=lightbane_focus,stats=43hit_51haste_80sp_58sta_55int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp
ranged=petrified_ivy_sprig,stats=29hit_45sp_26sta_19int_22spi,gems=10haste_12sp_4spi
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=10
# gear_agility=10
# gear_stamina=1155
# gear_intellect=1158
# gear_spirit=738
# gear_spell_power=3049
# gear_hit_rating=297
# gear_crit_rating=650
# gear_haste_rating=596
# gear_armor=2176
# meta_gem=chaotic_skyflare
# tier9_2pc_caster=1
# tier9_4pc_caster=1
# back=lady_liadrins_conviction,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
# main_hand=barb_of_tarasque,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max

#!./simc 

warlock=Bisdarkpact
origin="http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=20771293"
level=80
race=undead
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=9&tal=235002200102351025351033115100000000000000000000000000055000005
glyphs=quick_decay/life_tap/haunt
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/spell_stone
actions+=/fel_armor
actions+=/summon_pet,felhunter
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/dark_pact,buff_refresh=1
actions+=/wild_magic_potion,bloodlust=1
actions+=/haunt,debuff=1
actions+=/corruption
actions+=/curse_of_agony
actions+=/unstable_affliction
actions+=/haunt
actions+=/drain_soul,health_percentage<=25,interrupt=1
actions+=/shadow_bolt
actions+=/dark_pact,mana_percentage<=20,buff_refresh=1,moving=1
actions+=/corruption,time_to_die>=20,moving=1
actions+=/curse_of_agony,time_to_die>=30,moving=1
actions+=/dark_pact
head=guldans_hood_of_triumph,stats=282armor_94crit_151sp_116sta_116int_86spi,gems=chaotic_skyflare_12sp_10spi_9sp,enchant=30sp_20crit
neck=cry_of_the_valkyr,stats=57crit_43haste_91sp_65sta_65int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp
shoulders=guldans_shoulderpads_of_triumph,stats=260armor_76crit_124sp_86sta_86int_68spi,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=24sp_15crit
chest=guldans_robe_of_triumph,stats=347armor_94hit_160sp_116sta_116int_94spi,gems=23sp_12sp_10spi_7sp,enchant=10str_10agi_10sta_10int_10spi
waist=belt_of_the_tenebrous_mist,stats=195armor_60haste_114sp_86sta_86int_76spi,gems=12sp_10spi_23sp_23sp_7sp
legs=guldans_leggings_of_triumph,stats=303armor_102crit_86haste_160sp_116sta_116int,gems=23sp_10haste_12sp_7sp,enchant=50sp_20spi
feet=sandals_of_the_mourning_widow,stats=238armor_68haste_124sp_86sta_86int_76spi,gems=12sp_10spi_23sp_7sp,enchant=12crit_12hit
wrists=bindings_of_the_ashen_saint,stats=152armor_49haste_91sp_65sta_65int_57spi,gems=12sp_10spi_5sp,enchant=30sp
hands=guldans_gloves_of_triumph,stats=217armor_68hit_76crit_124sp_86sta_86int,gems=23sp_4crit,enchant=28sp
finger1=lurid_manifestation,stats=53crit_91sp_65sta_65int_50spi,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=23sp
finger2=conductive_seal,stats=55haste_75sp_52sta_48int_39spi,gems=12sp_10spi_5sp,enchant=23sp
trinket1=reign_of_the_dead,stats=168sp,equip=onspelldirectcrit_2117fire_3stack_2.0cd
trinket2=flare_of_the_heavens,stats=120crit,equip=onspellcast_850sp_10%_10dur_45cd
back=lady_liadrins_conviction,stats=182armor_57haste_105sp_74sta_74int_65spi,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=barb_of_tarasque,stats=51hit_57haste_692sp_48sta_65int,gems=12sp_10spi_5sp,enchant=63sp,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max
off_hand=lightbane_focus,stats=43hit_51haste_80sp_58sta_55int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp
ranged=petrified_ivy_sprig,stats=29hit_45sp_26sta_19int_22spi,gems=10haste_12sp_4spi
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=10
# gear_agility=10
# gear_stamina=1155
# gear_intellect=1158
# gear_spirit=738
# gear_spell_power=3049
# gear_hit_rating=297
# gear_crit_rating=650
# gear_haste_rating=596
# gear_armor=2176
# meta_gem=chaotic_skyflare
# tier9_2pc_caster=1
# tier9_4pc_caster=1
# back=lady_liadrins_conviction,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
# main_hand=barb_of_tarasque,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max

rutiene · 02/02/10, 9:45 PM

That's because you're still using T9. This change is only beneficial if you're using T10 gear due to the sudden exchange of Spirit for other stats (like Haste and Crit). Since LifeTap scales with Spirit and Dark Pact with Spell Power, therefore people have found a DPS increase by speccing into Dark Pact after changing into T10.

I changed into 2-pc T10 from 4-pc T9 today, and had to make this change based on the Sims I ran.

Additionally, what do you mean by 'trivial' to use? With "Improved Felhunter", my Felhunter's mana is always full even if with my use of Dark Pact, and I'd imagine it'd help on hard modes that have heavy healing. The only issue I'd see is in heavy damage fights, we would have to be far more careful with our pet's survivability.

Sumbish · 02/03/10, 2:19 AM

What simcraft cannot model is can you stay less than 30y from pet for DP, and what raid benefit does not having to heal the locks give (think VDW), or personal survivability. So when you are modelling DP consider those factors as well.

hdante · 02/03/10, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by rutiene

That's because you're still using T9. This change is only beneficial if you're using T10 gear due to the sudden exchange of Spirit for other stats (like Haste and Crit). Since LifeTap scales with Spirit and Dark Pact with Spell Power, therefore people have found a DPS increase by speccing into Dark Pact after changing into T10.

I changed into 2-pc T10 from 4-pc T9 today, and had to make this change based on the Sims I ran.

Additionally, what do you mean by 'trivial' to use? With "Improved Felhunter", my Felhunter's mana is always full even if with my use of Dark Pact, and I'd imagine it'd help on hard modes that have heavy healing. The only issue I'd see is in heavy damage fights, we would have to be far more careful with our pet's survivability.

Then I repeat again my first post, is it possible to include 56/0/15 in post #1 ? Maybe the person who has the T10 profiles could do this.

Dark Pact is not trivial because it has certain weird behaviors. The advantage is obvious, you don't loose health while casting it, the disadvantages are the following:
1) it can't be cast repeatedly, or the felhunter goes oom and it loses its effect (mostly a problem right before the fight, but also when moving)
2) it has glitches (sometimes you think the cast failed for a moment)
3) it has a delay (so you need to have a little more mana all the time, or certain casts would fail because you're oom for 200 milliseconds)
4) the pet must be alive (an AoE-nuke problem or maybe poor healers)
5) the pet must be close to you (you may be out of his range, even though you're on target's range)

For short, an authoritative figure in post #1 could help me (and others) decide what's worth to choose.

kampfturke · 02/03/10, 11:24 AM

Why not both?
I use Dark Pact where I receive damage (how many times have we life tapped to then die from external damage)
Life Tap can then be used on a need basis.

Example Anub'arak post 30%. How many Warlocks have I heard complain about low health and low mana blah blah.

I find the options are fantastic and allow players more flexibility.

Plus with T10 Life Tap starts to lose alot of its value and Dark Pact gains

Easy choice in my eyes

Vibrátes · 02/03/10, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Karlex

It does seem to point to at least revisiting the situation. However, it really comes down to tests on training dummies and real raid situations. Besides, exact gear makeup can make a huge difference. I doubt your gear is as good as what's being put in those situations. You might not have all the tier gear they have, for instance. That can make a big difference.

I'd assume that any reasonably good geared demo lock (ie at least 2xt9/2xt10) would be sitting over 1k self buffed haste already and i'd expect thats why crit is showing as marginally better as its something they have in abundance. Maybe its pointing us to look at gear with more crit rather than haste. Also noticed that cloth i have seen with + crit on is generally loaded with spirit which could work out a lot more beneficial perhaps depending on current stats ofc

Naforce · 02/03/10, 8:05 PM

Tests show that [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich] (normal version) has a 90 second ICD and a 20 sec uptime. Maximum uptime percentage should be 20/90=22,222...%. Modeling it in simcraft though gives me 25% uptime which makes me assume that it is modeled wrong and if so, it's value should drop below that of other trinkets and our BiSlists needs to be altered slightly.

Warlocomotif · 02/03/10, 9:33 PM

Originally Posted by Naforce

Tests show that [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich] (normal version) has a 90 second ICD and a 20 sec uptime. Maximum uptime percentage should be 20/90=22,222...%. Modeling it in simcraft though gives me 25% uptime which makes me assume that it is modeled wrong and if so, it's value should drop below that of other trinkets and our BiSlists needs to be altered slightly.

That's the uptime over an infinite timespan, if the cooldown is 90s, and a fight takes 120s, you'll probably get 2 full procs and 33% uptime. Essentially if the fight length wraps neatly around the procs then it can comfortably have higher uptime. I recommend playing with the fight length randomizer a bit.

Originally Posted by Vibrátes

I'd assume that any reasonably good geared demo lock (ie at least 2xt9/2xt10) would be sitting over 1k self buffed haste already and i'd expect thats why crit is showing as marginally better as its something they have in abundance. Maybe its pointing us to look at gear with more crit rather than haste. Also noticed that cloth i have seen with + crit on is generally loaded with spirit which could work out a lot more beneficial perhaps depending on current stats ofc

A demo lock should prioritize spirit over haste/crit, and is actually quite likely to not have 760 haste unless they've been focusing on the wrong stats. It's important to look at the results in perspective though- ie, how much haste and crit and lag do *you* have?