With regards to the firestone versus spellstone argument, I'm not sure that it's all that cut and dried for 0/13/58. My assumption (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that CoD and immolate ticks are counted as periodic damage and the initial immolate application is counted as direct damage. Using that I ran some napkin math on one of our warlocks on an Ignis fight (I figured that would have the closest to normal breakdown of spells used of our fights this week).
According to that math he did 936782 in direct damage and 173942 in periodic damage over the course of a 5 minute fight (this is after correcting for the spellstone he had applied). So the firestone was worth 25.43dps more over the course of the fight in the 1% direct vs 1% periodic damage comparison. However using the simulationcraft values for haste and crit with that spec (granted those assume the higher gear levels he doesn't have), the haste vs crit rating puts spellstone ahead by 41.71dps in the combat ratings department. So that actually puts the spellstone ahead of the firestone in that particular fight by 16.28dps.
I tried running similar math on the simulationcraft data, however I didn't have the immolate ticks split from the initial application- treating all of the immolate damage as direct damage put the firestone ahead on the simulationcraft gear by about 10dps.
So I'm guessing that there's a certain gear inflection point at which the firestone becomes better, but it's probably variable by fight as your gear improves- the gear has to be good enough to put out enough direct damage to compensate for the large lead that the haste rating has over the crit rating. On some fights like Vezax and Hodir, I would expect the firestone to be a clear winner, but on other fights if your gear isn't top of the line, the spellstone may pull ahead.
I'm not an expert on napkin math though, so if someone can provide a reference with more clear detail on which wins out, please do.
In that case the warlock you were looking at was doing much lower dps than what is modeled in simulationcraft. For have to remember, the simulation models a Patchwerk style fight, and in a real situation, the DPS values of haste, crit, etc. are lower. If you were to receive similar results with the warlock doing 7k DPS, the scaling factors of the simulator can be used.
In that case the warlock you were looking at was doing much lower dps than what is modeled in simulationcraft. For have to remember, the simulation models a Patchwerk style fight, and in a real situation, the DPS values of haste, crit, etc. are lower. If you were to receive similar results with the warlock doing 7k DPS, the scaling factors of the simulator can be used.
I realize the real scaling numbers would be lower, but I don't know that they're lower enough to put the firestone ahead at those dps levels. Just assuming that at lower dps levels, crit scaling would not go up, I did the math and if the crit scaling at that gear level was 1.01, then the haste scaling would need to be lower than 1.25 in order for the firestone to come out ahead with those damage numbers. Given that at the higher gear level, the haste scaling is 1.52 compared to the 1.01 crit scaling, that just doesn't seem likely.
I am just wondering if the firestone is really always better with the spec or if there's a tipping point and what that tipping point would be.
With the 0/13/58 build, what would be the best way (if any) to implement the improved HS? I was thinking taking a point out of Fel Synergy and Demonic Embrace, but I hate losing more Stam
The best way to get improved healthstones is removing your stamina talents. You don't have Demonic Knowledge, so your DPS doesn't scale with stamina. IMO Fel Synergy beats 3% stamina.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
Just a thought about firestone vs. spellstone respectively crit vs. haste:
I see a problem with simulationcraft vs. real boss fights. Simulationcraft assumes a tank&spank fight, no running, no pushback, perfect rotation, no distractions whatsoever. But some boss fights give you certain time windows in which you can dps, some time windows in which you have to move and only allows you to use instants/reapply dots/lifetap. To give you the idea, consider the following really artificial example (I did not look up the exact numbers, and yes, I finetuned them)
-Boss fight allows you to dps for 20 secs, then you have to run for a certain time, always that pattern
-you are only allowed to use a certain nuke, which has a cast time of, say, 1.8 secs without spellstone, 1.75 secs with spellstone (~3% difference)
So, with AND without spellstone, you can only fit in 11 of your nukes before you have to move, the same for all consequent dps time windows. In this case, the benefit of additonal haste is more like a step function: it has ZERO effect until a certain threshold is passed, i.e., it allows you to fit in one/more additional nuke(s). Therefore it would be better to choose crit if you have not reached that threshold.
To extend this idea to, now, real boss fights, one would have to consider the following:
if there are certain dps time windows as mentioned above, does more haste lower the gcd/cast times of my spells enough so that me being able to fit in more of those spells is actually better than less spells which crit more often on average? As an example, think of the ground phases of razorscale > 50% HP, which last a fixed amount of time.
I didn't think this to the end, quite the contrary, so feel free to critizise.
In general, haste for a destruction warlock has some interesting step functions to it. If you're modeling just a plain immolate + incinerate rotation, you'd only get benefits from haste at the levels where you could fit in more incinerates per immolate, really. Having an extra 0.8 seconds after your final incinerate is kind of annoying - do you LT, toss a corruption? Clip immolate? etc.
So yeah, I concur - haste has a funny scaling system that is clearly not smoothly linear. On the other hand, you're frequently under multiple haste effects. Moonkin, wrath of air, heroism, etc, all change the calculation, so it's possible to argue that you should probably just stack whatever stat scales best for you and let everything else take care of itself. At the end of the day, though, if you don't have master conjurer, the bonus you get from either stone relative to the other is very small.
Ok I was just checking for the scale factors for 0/13/58 in the simicraft thread and they are different from the 3.1 compendium thread, not by alot but still different, so my question is which scale factors are the correct ones or are they both right so to speak?
Edit* they also seem to have been updated the same date.
Ok I was just checking for the scale factors for 0/13/58 in the simicraft thread and they are different from the 3.1 compendium thread, not by alot but still different, so my question is which scale factors are the correct ones or are they both right so to speak?
Edit* they also seem to have been updated the same date.
Simcraft, since the compendium got it's scale factors from simcraft. The compendium hasn't been kept fully up to date with all the changes recently.
You could always just download the latest build and run the sim yourself.
Wondering if anyone here has done/attempted Mimiron hard mode (10 or 25) and found some of the destro survivability talents worth it (Molten Skin/Nether Prot come to mind) or to keep the standard spec and leave the heavy lifting to the healers?
I put max points in molten skin and nether prot as an off-build for 13/58 to aid with tanking on Mimiron (beat easy mode by the skin of our teeth). I enjoyed the added survivability so much that I never switched back. I use it for the whole raid and am still competitive for DPS. For reference I took 2 pts out of backlash, 1 out of pyroclasm, and 3 out of cataclysm. I haven't done any research to see if that is optimal because I don't give a shit.
Wondering if anyone here has done/attempted Mimiron hard mode (10 or 25) and found some of the destro survivability talents worth it (Molten Skin/Nether Prot come to mind) or to keep the standard spec and leave the heavy lifting to the healers?
I tank 10 man hardmode in our guild and use a special spec for it as in P4 things just turn exceptionally ugly at the drop of a hat and survival can be tough, in the end I went something like this:
Off the top of my head, the reasons for the vastly weird selection were:
Shadowfury for the firebots, used rarely but useful.
Soul Link for p1/p2/p3 with imp, p4 for VW - pet was passive and kept alive mostly with fel synergy.
Demo aegis for demon armour p3/p4
Fel dom for p4 VW incase you lose him
Soul Leech was there because I was the only regen.
I don't want to break the rules regarding hardmode encounters but I found this to be the best spec that suited the problems the encounter brings up. I found it very tough to stay alive in p4 sometimes as healers had to deal with so much and by having nether prot, soul link and sacrifice I could tank the head solo when everyone has to run to avoid the P3W beam for example.
Sash of Ancient Power, provided you can use the hit. Assuming as destro you will not take the +hit talents, this should almost certainly be the case.
Id use one now but im already swimming in hit gear :S 16% hit (im crazy unlucky with the BiS trinkets) i think BiS is relative to the pieces you already have in slot. Yes there is a diffinitive Best in Slot "set" but until you get all these pieces, there are better alternatives.
Id use one now but im already swimming in hit gear :S 16% hit (im crazy unlucky with the BiS trinkets) i think BiS is relative to the pieces you already have in slot. Yes there is a diffinitive Best in Slot "set" but until you get all these pieces, there are better alternatives.
I keep seeing this: people taking "best in slot" hit gear even thought they're hit capped. That is a BAD decision to make; that gear is only best in slot because of the hit, and if you can't use that hit then it becomes much crappier. If you have anywhere more than 14% hit (13% for alliance, -3% with talents) then you're doing something horribly wrong. Learn to plan your gear, i'd rather gem one +hit gem rather than equipping a +41 hit item while i'm hitcapped just because it's "best in slot".
EDIT: checked your armory, get rid of dying curse ASAP, any DPS trinket is better than that if you're hit capped. Eye of the broodmother from ulduar10, Embrace of the Spider from naxx10, Illustration from sarth25, or Scale of Fates from Thorim if you're lucky.
Every point above 342 (or 262 if you have 3/3 suppression) not only is a waste, but is a substantial detriment as you are losing haste/crit.
So hit is twice as good as SP until you hit cap. But it is infinitely worse than any other quality the second you cross cap. Hit is an albatross after cap.
If you have all BIS items (as calculated individually) you will not be max geared...far from it.
Gearing is a dynamic process that requires planning to transition you from where you are now...to where you want to be.
I'm not playing a warlock as main class, but I'm looking for gear advices to help with some decisions on loot distribution. I found this threat and even though the statweights are a nice help, your links seem to be broken (they are named like "T8 set" but just include naxx/sarth/maly items)
Would be nice to see them updated (or some other "BiS List)
With the destro based build (0/13/58), I am sometimes having issues with initial threat, especially when raiding with a druid tank, thanks to the large initial burst that immo->conflag->fast CB provides (when not casting CoD/CoA) - does anyone have any thoughts as to how to rearrange the start of this rotation to lower threat a little but not give up too much dps?
Perhaps a simplistic view would be to cast immo->corruption->incinerate or immo->corr->conflag->...(old rotation), but does anyone have some better ideas?
With the destro based build (0/13/58), I am sometimes having issues with initial threat, especially when raiding with a druid tank, thanks to the large initial burst that immo->conflag->fast CB provides (when not casting CoD/CoA) - does anyone have any thoughts as to how to rearrange the start of this rotation to lower threat a little but not give up too much dps?
Perhaps a simplistic view would be to cast immo->corruption->incinerate or immo->corr->conflag->...(old rotation), but does anyone have some better ideas?
Unfortunately I have this problem with Bears as well. Currently, the only fix I have found so far (while still doing damage) is:
Immolate, Corruption, Curse, Wand
Once Immolate wears off, continue your rotation as normal (after you refresh Immolate of course). That should give the bear enough time to stack his Lacerates and establish a lead.
With the destro based build (0/13/58), I am sometimes having issues with initial threat, especially when raiding with a druid tank, thanks to the large initial burst that immo->conflag->fast CB provides (when not casting CoD/CoA) - does anyone have any thoughts as to how to rearrange the start of this rotation to lower threat a little but not give up too much dps?
Perhaps a simplistic view would be to cast immo->corruption->incinerate or immo->corr->conflag->...(old rotation), but does anyone have some better ideas?
Spec out of backlash and into destro reach. 2% crit isn't that big of a hit, and 6 yards on everything expect CoD tends to add to DPS on any fight where you have to move around a bit.
05/25/09, 10:10 PM
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