Elitist Jerks The 3.2 Discussion Thread

 06/30/09, 3:40 AM #16 Raugturi Glass Joe   Raugturi Gnome Warlock   Korgath Doing some quick math on the 2pc, I don't see where the 7-8% is coming from. A 10% crit increase will net 6/x extra procs per minute, where x = the cast time of Fire Bolt, regardless of the Imp's starting crit rate. ```x = Cast time of Fire Bolt in seconds pet_crit = Pet's crit percentage before the 10% increase. num_casts = Number of Fire Bolt casts per minute extra_procs = Extra Empowered Imp procs per minute from 10% increase to crit player_crit = Player's crit percentage without Empowered Imp player_casts = Number of casts per minute for the player player_gain = Extra crit percentage gained by the player for the extra EI procs. num_casts = 60 / x extra_procs = num_casts * (pet_crit + 0.1) - num_casts * pet_crit = numcasts * 0.1 extra_procs = 6 / x player_gain = extra_procs * (1 - player_crit) / player_casts``` Assuming a cast time on Fire Bolt of 1.86s (based on T8 simcraft), this means a net gain of 3.23 procs per minute, assuming no double/wasted procs. Simcraft has the player at 38.6 casts per minute. So, the net gain is 3.23 * (1 - player_crit) / 38.6. Running simcraft for a 5 minute fight as 0/13/58 without the imp gives a crit percentage of ~50% without Empowered Imp, which results in a gain of only about 4.2% crit. Also, this means that the higher your crit rate is to begin with, the less benefit you see. The same goes for haste, but that is simply due to more casts between the Empowered Imp procs. Or am I tackling that with an inappropriate method? Edit: The 50% crit is probably a bit high. I just realized I ran this with the 4pc T8 still set to active. Dropping it to 45% would net about a 4.6% increase from the T9 bonus. You're right though (just to clarify that I wasn't arguing with the overall conclusion, just the actual percentage), even at 4% it would still be a nice dps boost, especially when considering the extra pet damage as well. Last edited by Raugturi : 06/30/09 at 10:02 PM. Reason: Corrected formula for player_gain percentage.
06/30/09, 5:45 AM   #17
supplicium
Don Flamenco

Gnome Warlock

Alterac Mountains
After looking through your numbers (several times over as I'm very tired) you are right in the sense that I was a BIT over the top with my guess on #'s.

Though this is going to be a VERY difficult set to figure out dps wise, as it's soo rng based if the pet crits and you weren't going to crit than you crit, but if the pet crits and you do crit based on your own internal roll than you lost the worth of the bonus, and if the pet crits twice between the time you cast one spell, you loose, it's soo iffy, but still a pretty solid bonus given the pets current role of 10%~ percent dps for the warlock maybe more depending on the fight, (or a lot less too) so thats a good sized buff.

 The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.

 06/30/09, 10:27 AM #18 bonhoeffer Glass Joe   Bonhoeffer Blood Elf Warlock   Misha I'll be curious to see how 41/30 performs with the T9 set bonuses. 41/30 is already getting a boost thanks to improved pet scaling and now it seems 41/30 would benefit the most from T9, increased pet crits, immolate and corruption increase. Nevertheless, I hope destro stays on top
 06/30/09, 10:56 AM #19 nenad Piston Honda   nenad Undead Warlock   Doomhammer (EU) Tier 9 effects are added to simcraft (although not yet in release version): tier9_2pc=1 tier9_4pc=1 Related to 4pc, corruption now seems to be small DPS increase for destro with 4pc, but affliction is seeing much more DPS increase, since afflic had corruption as good DPS spells already included in rotation.
06/30/09, 1:34 PM   #20
realCool
Von Kaiser

Orc Warlock

Anetheron (EU)
 Originally Posted by bonhoeffer I'll be curious to see how 41/30 performs with the T9 set bonuses. 41/30 is already getting a boost thanks to improved pet scaling and now it seems 41/30 would benefit the most from T9, increased pet crits, immolate and corruption increase. Nevertheless, I hope destro stays on top
Don't think there is much of an increase because the bonus only increases the critical strike chance of the pet abilities and most of the dmg of the felguard comes from his autoattacks, so the crit would only apply to cleave

 07/04/09, 12:14 PM #21 Heeno Piston Honda     Heeno Gnome Warlock   Alterac Mountains Elaborating on what Raugturi was disscussing earlier, I've done some quick calculations to determine the approximate dps value of 2pt9 for destruction using Simulationcraft. The imp's damage increase can be determined by the following formula: ```h = avg. imp hit c = avg. imp crit n = total # of casts x = crit rate t = time in combat (n*h*(0.9-x) + n*h*(x+0.1)) - (n*h*(1-x) + n*c*x) / t``` So plug in using values obtained via Simcraft: ```((161.2*1114*(0.9-.18)+161.2*1672*(.18+.01)) - (161.2*1114*(1-.18)+161.2*1672*.18)) / 300 = (((161.2*1114*.72)+(161.2*1672*.28) - ((161.2*1114*.82)+(161.2*1672*.18)) / 300 = 8994 dmg / 300 seconds = 29.98 DPS``` Then taking empowered imp into account which is calculated like the following: ```a = imp crits per minute with 2pt9 b = imp crits per minute without 2pt9 c = # casts per minute x = crit rate ((a-b)*(1-x))/c``` To determine the a definite crit rate, instead of just looking at incinerate, I multiplied the crit rate of each spell capable of critting by the number of casts of that spell per minute divided by the total number of casts per minute and added them all up. (.463*(20/161.2))+(.684*(27.5/161.2))+(.449*(19.1/161.2))+(.516*(124.6/161.2)) = .6262 = 62.62% crit rate Then plugging that back into the formula for empowered imp above: 3.23 * (1-.6262) / 38.6 = 0.03128 = 3.128% crit increase Then after adjusting the crit rate by that amount, the empowered imp boost from 2p t9 approximated to be about a 135 DPS increase. Combining that with the actual increased damage of the imp, 2p t9 appears to be a total of about a 165 DPS increase. As mentioned earlier, empowered imp scales backward with haste and crit. A cast that boosted by empowered imp that was going to crit regardless, is not a dps increase. So the lower one's crit is, the greater the dps value empowered imp is going to be. The same goes with haste, since the imp has a normalized cast rate, you will receive the exact same number of empowered imp procs regardless of how much haste you have. So with less casts per minute, the impact of empowered imp will be greater. Last edited by Heeno : 07/04/09 at 12:27 PM.
 07/13/09, 5:10 PM #22 Ewinessa Von Kaiser   Ewinessa Undead Warlock   Shattered Hand Some nifty 3.2 info, demonic pact now gains full benefit from spirit to spell power conversion from 3/3 DA Fel Armor and Glyph of LifeTap.
 07/25/09, 10:58 PM #23 dwsr Glass Joe   Arelin Night Elf Death Knight   Emerald Dream I'm curious to see how deep destro (0/13/58) DPS will change come the new patch. I'm currently destro because I like the playstyle more than I like the fact that it is top DPS (though that is a nice bonus). With 10% more crits from the imp, will the changed Empowered Imp (100% chance to crit) make up for the fact that F&B is getting nerfed by 5%? Or will it balance out or even possibly be a DPS increase (i.e. is the 5% nerf to Incin & CB more than 135 DPS)? I'm leaning towards the fact that we're getting a slight nerf, but I'd love it if someone more knowledgeable than I could actually confirm that.
 07/26/09, 1:50 PM #24 Salius Glass Joe   Salius Gnome Warlock   Kel'Thuzad Glyph of Lifetap I'm currently testing a build using Glyph of Life Tap. (it's 40 sec duration is looking quite attractive in 3.2) Since I need to maintain that buff however, I feel Improved Soul Leech is less useful, and those points are better spent on 3/3 Suppression, and Soul Link. (I previously only had 2/3 Backlash so I could obtain 2/2 Reach - so the last point goes for 3/3 Backlash) Considerations being: 1. Improved Soul Leech builds can shy away from spirit - hence gear needs to be re-evaluated if you go with this idea 2. Glyph of Conflagrate is a given, so now we're left with Glyph of Incinerate vs Glyph of Immolate? 3. Since you get those "free" points in Suppression, you now have more utility to work with by requiring 3% less hit in your gear (I was able to swap out Dying Curse for Scale of Fates) 4. Would 3/5 Improved Corruption provide a larger dps increase than the utility gained through Suppression? I currently run: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...&version=10116 I may drop Improved Healthstone in favor of Demonic Embrace at some point since our other lock is demo.
 07/26/09, 7:20 PM #25 Naforce Piston Honda   Naforce Human Warlock   Frostmane (EU) Well speccing Corruption wouldn't be worth it since unspecced, corruption has a lower DPCT then incinerate and is therefore not used in the rotation. Of course, running around and all one might spend a GCD on corruption, but it is not prioritized. 3% hit is way better then improved corruption.
07/26/09, 7:33 PM   #26
dwsr
Glass Joe

Night Elf Death Knight

Emerald Dream
 Originally Posted by Salius I'm currently testing a build using Glyph of Life Tap. (it's 40 sec duration is looking quite attractive in 3.2) Since I need to maintain that buff however, I feel Improved Soul Leech is less useful, and those points are better spent on 3/3 Suppression, and Soul Link. (I previously only had 2/3 Backlash so I could obtain 2/2 Reach - so the last point goes for 3/3 Backlash)
I'm going to assume that you mean that ISL is less useful because you spend once every 40 seconds casting LT anyway. I tried 0/13/58 for a few weeks when we had a reliable spriest in our guild, and I found that I was still casting LT more than once every 40 seconds for mana. I don't know how the regen from 219+ gear would scale, but I would think that the ultimate goal is to provide just enough regen that you are LTing exactly once every 40sec., in order to reduce wasted GCDs and still keep the buff. This assumes, of course, that the buff is worth more DPS than a straight Glyph of Incin.

 Considerations being: 1. Improved Soul Leech builds can shy away from spirit - hence gear needs to be re-evaluated if you go with this idea
While it is true that ISL decreases dependence on spirit for regen, thanks to 3/3 DA, warlocks shouldn't "shy away". The stat weight changes, but I don't think it changes the priority vs. other stats (namely int). Spirit still does equate to spell power. Warlocks shouldn't be gemming/enchanting any spirit on their gear (except for maybe in a blue socket), and more regen doesn't really hurt anyway, since more regen means you can push the frequency of LT in your rotation down to once/40sec.

 2. Glyph of Conflagrate is a given, so now we're left with Glyph of Incinerate vs Glyph of Immolate?
Based on the 3.1 thread, I'd still go with Immolate, especially since Incinerate damage is getting a nerf anyway.

 3. Since you get those "free" points in Suppression, you now have more utility to work with by requiring 3% less hit in your gear (I was able to swap out Dying Curse for Scale of Fates)
Highly situational choice. Depends on your gear/available gem sockets and the availability of a hit debuff/Draenei. If you've got a Draenei spriest that always runs with you, then you only need your 13% to hit anyway. As a Horde without an spriest/oomkin available ever, I find that hard capping my hit/keeping 3/3 Suppression is the way to go.

 4. Would 3/5 Improved Corruption provide a larger dps increase than the utility gained through Suppression?
I wouldn't think so, since Corruption currently isn't used in the destro rotation anyway except where you are moving for extended periods of time. 3% less hit potentially means 3% more crit/haste, or possibly even more spell power.

 I currently run: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...&version=10116 I may drop Improved Healthstone in favor of Demonic Embrace at some point since our other lock is demo. I would definitely do that as DE means you can LT more and eases the burden on your healers. I have 2/2 IHS in my PvP spec specifically so I could have the 2 points in DE.
Interesting that you would pick up Soul Link vs. Shadowfury. I've often thought that SL kills my Imp and that SF would be more useful if something's coming at me.

Last edited by dwsr : 07/26/09 at 7:36 PM. Reason: Forgot a quote tag.

07/26/09, 10:39 PM   #27
Emoroan
Glass Joe

Nathrezim
 Originally Posted by dwsr I'm going to assume that you mean that ISL is less useful because you spend once every 40 seconds casting LT anyway. I tried 0/13/58 for a few weeks when we had a reliable spriest in our guild, and I found that I was still casting LT more than once every 40 seconds for mana. I don't know how the regen from 219+ gear would scale, but I would think that the ultimate goal is to provide just enough regen that you are LTing exactly once every 40sec., in order to reduce wasted GCDs and still keep the buff. This assumes, of course, that the buff is worth more DPS than a straight Glyph of Incin.
On a fight like mimiron I tend to find that I can make it a complete phase without needing to tap in 25 man. I'll tap myself silly in the between phase but that's another matter. It means that I can last a full 2-3 minutes without requiring a tap at all, I'm not sure why you can't seem to last 40 seconds.

 Originally Posted by dwsr Interesting that you would pick up Soul Link vs. Shadowfury. I've often thought that SL kills my Imp and that SF would be more useful if something's coming at me.
I currently have both talents, Soul Link is great because it takes some pressure off the healers as Shadowfury obviously doesn't work on a fire. Shadowfury on the other hand is still extremely useful, i normally find myself using it to allow tanks a bit more time to get aggro when something spawns as opposed to using on something I accidentally pull.

 07/27/09, 12:55 AM #28 Warlocomotif Don Flamenco     Warlocomotif Human Warlock   Emerald Dream (EU) I also run my destruction spec with both soul link and shadow fury. Soul Link is really a massive help on fights like Thorim/Freya hard mode, or tanking Mimiron's head on hard mode. Shadowfury is also great (for example on Council Medium p3 or Freya mini adds)- quite frankly I don't believe 2% crit would be better than either of those 2 talents. The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
 07/27/09, 1:05 AM #29 Frailty99 Glass Joe   Frailty Undead Warlock   Turalyon Demo-Buff spec 3.2 First off this is my first time posting here, im gonna try and uphold the no-hand holding aspect of the terms :P I am planning on being the Pact bitch in 3.2 and am just looking for some advice on how to do it right. Im think i have it mostly right, just need to iron out a few details. 1. Spec and glyph's. I have searched for a cookie cutter build with no avail (well the one linked in the demo thread might not be 100% accurate in 3.2). This is what i have come up with, and would like some feedback. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...&version=10147 I hear lifetap glyph and aegis are now correctly applying to pact on PTR, thus my glyph choices. 2. Rotation. Curse of Doom>immolate>corruption>Sbolt spam>soul fires via decimation. Along with popping meta during lusts/times when i think i can get two in a fight etc. Again this is one point im not 100% on. Ive read both that using doom is a DPS boost as full demo over CoA, but ive also read CoA is almost necessary for MC procs. Id like to think CoA would be much more beneficial to use when in decimation range, and generally use doom before that. I think these questions/discussion are appropriate for this thread, as i havent seen much discussion on Meta builds in this thread or on these boards for 3.2.
 07/27/09, 1:37 AM #30 Warlocomotif Don Flamenco     Warlocomotif Human Warlock   Emerald Dream (EU) CoA is needed for MC procs in a 0/41/30 spec. It's both, not needed and not very useful for demonic pact spec. Reason being that you're already nuking with Shadow Bolt (=MC procs), and you're not doing that much fire damage anyway since you're not nuking with incinerate (as FG/ES does). As for your talent spec: Aftermath is a bad talent. Its not worth taking as Demo. Let the destruction lock pick up improved healthstones, the demo lock should get Demonic Embrace. Remember that you (slightly) scale with stamina as a demo lock. Also, pick up 3/3 Improved Demonic Tactics. Makes for much better demonic pact uptime. The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

 Elitist Jerks The 3.2 Discussion Thread