The 3.2 Discussion Thread - Page 4

Vinclass · 08/24/09, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by meingaree

I'm sorry, but maybe i'm missing something here.

If spellpower is worth roughly 1.6dps per, then how is it possible to gain 300dps using glyph of life tap?

it would give roughly 120-150 spellpower at 600spirit or so buffed, that would be around 192-240 dps gain, IF you had NO glyph in that slot from before.

so how is it possible to gain 300dps from switching glyphs, much less getting that much from the glyph alone.

I don't have any math to prove it's a 300 dps gain, but if you use the 1.6dps/sp number, I can show you 300dps normally. In my current gearset, I'm over 900 spirit raid buffed, which comes out to right about 300dps. As for a difference in the glyphs, the best I can tell you is while you're reducing the immo/conflag damage, you're immediately rebuffing a portion of that, in addition to the incinerate/chaos bolt damage.

As much as we all hate dummy tests, I can also tell you my dummy dps went from ~4200 to ~4500 when I switched glyphs. In my experience it really did add about 300 dps.

meingaree · 08/26/09, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vinclass

I don't have any math to prove it's a 300 dps gain, but if you use the 1.6dps/sp number, I can show you 300dps normally. In my current gearset, I'm over 900 spirit raid buffed, which comes out to right about 300dps. As for a difference in the glyphs, the best I can tell you is while you're reducing the immo/conflag damage, you're immediately rebuffing a portion of that, in addition to the incinerate/chaos bolt damage.

As much as we all hate dummy tests, I can also tell you my dummy dps went from ~4200 to ~4500 when I switched glyphs. In my experience it really did add about 300 dps.

There really is no way you could have gained 300 dps going from immolate to life tap.

900 spirit would equate to 180spell damage, or 288 dps, and thats not including the fact that you are life tapping more than you normally would, and if you aren't life tapping every 40 sec, then you don't even have a 100% uptime on the buff, and you would get less than 288dps from it.

On another note, are you raid buffed with kings and spirit when damaging the target dummy? Because a gain of 300dps would be an even greater gain than with your 900 raid buffed.

and again like i had said, if you gained 300dps from a glyph that at max could have given you 300dps with optimal buffs, that's like saying that glyph of immolate is negative dps.

it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, saying you went from 4200dps to 4500dps tells me nothing, for all i know you did 4200dps in 300k dmg and 4500dps in 600k dmg.

Duckmistress · 09/08/09, 12:34 PM

I compiled a BiS list myself because I couldn't find alot of threads since 3.2 on gear.

BiS Warlock Alliance 0/13/58 patch 3.2 (JC/tailoring)

Head: Kel'thuzad's Hood of Triumph (tribute chest TotC 25 hc)
Meta: Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
Gems: 1 x Purified Dreadstone (10 spirit/12 SP)
Enchant: Arcanum of Burning Mysteries (30 SP/20 crit)

Neck: Wail of the Val'kyr (Eydis Darkbane TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste)

Shoulders: Kel'thuzad's Shoulderpads of Triumph (tribute chest TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste)
Enchant: Greater Inscription of the Storm (24 SP/15 crit)

Back: Jaina's Radiance (tribute chest TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Runed Dragon's Eye (39 SP)
Enchant: Lightweave's Embroidery

Chest: Skyweaver Robes (Fjola Lightbane TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Purified Dreadstone (10 spirit/12 SP), 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste), 1 x Runed Dragon's Eye (39 SP)
Enchant: Powerful Stats (+10 stats)

Wrists: Bindings of Dark Essence (Eydis Darkbane TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste)
Enchant: Superior Spellpower (30 SP)

Hands: Kel'thuzad's Gloves of Triumph (tribute chest TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Runed Dragon's Eye (39 SP)
Enchant: Exceptional Spellpower (28 SP)

Waist: Cord of the Tenebrous Mist (Icehowl TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Purified Dreadstone (10 spirit/12 SP), 2 x Runed Cardinal Ruby (46 SP)

Legs: Kel'thuzad's Leggings of Triumph (tribute chest TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Runed Cardinal Ruby (23 SP), 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste)
Enchant: Sanctified Spellthread (50 SP/20 spirit)

Feet: Boots of the Mourning Widow (Faction Champs TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Purified Dreadstone (10 spirit/12 SP), 1 x Runed Cardinal Ruby (23 SP)
Enchant: Icewalker (12 crit/12 hit)

Finger 1: Ring of the Darkmender (Lord Jaraxxus TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste)

Finger 2: Band of Deplorable Violence (Anub'Arak TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste)

Trinket 1: Reign of the Dead ilvl 258 (Anub'Arak TotC 25 hc)

Trinket 2: Flare of the Heavens (Vezax UD 25 hard)

Main Hand: Blade of Tarasque (Icehowl TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Purified Dreadstone (10 spirit/12 SP)
Enchant: Mighty Spellpower (63 SP)

Offhand: Chalice of Benedictus (Eydis Darkbane TotC 10 hc)
Gems: 1 x Veiled Ametrine (10 hit/12 SP)

Wand: Petrified Ivy Sprig (Freya UD 10 hard)
Gems: 1 x Runed Cardinal Ruby (23 SP)

This lands you at the following stats (in a raidbuffed environment):

1592 intellect
855 spirit
4112 spellpower
38.84% crit
27.52% haste
342 hitrating (raidcapped with a draenei and SP/boomkin)

Spellia · 09/08/09, 3:16 PM

Nice list, though...

Finger 1: Ring of the Darkmender (Lord Jaraxxus TotC 25 hc)
Gems: 1 x Reckless Ametrine (12 SP/10 haste)

mp5 ring?

Beveline · 09/08/09, 3:19 PM

My understanding that unless you are gemming for your Meta Gem, that gemming for anything but Spell Damage was a No No. Has this philosophy changed? Because I have discovered that the sum of just adding, for example, 10 haste at the expense of 19 spell damage vs. 23 spell damage has a negative effect on DPS.

Melbuframa · 09/08/09, 3:26 PM

Duckmistress your list is basically the same as what I came up with. For anyone playing Horde you will be best off running Cord of Biting Cold as a Belt and Scepter of Imprisoned Souls as a wand to reach the 14% Hitcap.

mjball · 09/09/09, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by Beveline

My understanding that unless you are gemming for your Meta Gem, that gemming for anything but Spell Damage was a No No.

If you're under hit cap, gem for hit, no questions asked.
The philosophy I've been using is using the Simcraft stat weight scale to determine whether or not a socket bonus is worth the loss of using a gem other than 23 spellpower.

Warlocomotif · 09/09/09, 1:58 PM

It's very simple and should be determined on a case by case basis; take the simcraft stat weight scale for your character (Run it for yourself), and multiply whatever stats gems+socket bonus would give you with the scalers, then do the same only without the socket bonus with 2x23 spellpower gems.

Duckmistress · 09/09/09, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by Spellia

Nice list, though...

mp5 ring?

Yeah gz blizz on optimal itemization I guess :p it is BiS however going from my calculations

My understanding that unless you are gemming for your Meta Gem, that gemming for anything but Spell Damage was a No No. Has this philosophy changed? Because I have discovered that the sum of just adding, for example, 10 haste at the expense of 19 spell damage vs. 23 spell damage has a negative effect on DPS.

Every pure spellpower vs haste/spell or spirit/spell has ofcourse been calculated. Calculated with the appropriate scaling factors for 0/13/58 these gemmings are all correct. As you can see I DID put +23SP in the wand for example as the +4 spirit socket bonus doesn't outweigh a runed cardinal ruby.

Just one example using these scaling factors so you understand how I did it:

Band of Deplorable Violence has one Yellow socket. The question is to use 12SP/10 haste and +5SP socket bonus vs. 23SP and ignore socket bonus:

Runed Cardinal Ruby: 23 sp x 1.57 = 36.11
vs.
Reckless Ametrine: (12 sp x 1.57 = 18.84) + (10 haste x 1.25 = 12.5)
+ socket bonus 5 sp x 1.57 = 7.85
Total : 39.19

Runed Cardinal Ruby = 36.11 dps vs Reckless Ametrine + bonus = 39.19 dps

Reckless Ametrine + 5 sp socket bonus > pure spellpower (23sp)

Edit note: if you want the very correct scaling values for your character and gear run simcraft personally for even more optimal scaling weight results as Warlocomotif said.

Rhadamanthis · 09/10/09, 7:53 PM

Originally Posted by Duckmistress

Just one example using these scaling factors so you understand how I did it:

Band of Deplorable Violence has one Yellow socket. The question is to use 12SP/10 haste and +5SP socket bonus vs. 23SP and ignore socket bonus:

Runed Cardinal Ruby: 23 sp x 1.57 = 36.11
vs.
Reckless Ametrine: (12 sp x 1.57 = 18.84) + (10 haste x 1.25 = 12.5)
+ socket bonus 5 sp x 1.57 = 7.85
Total : 39.19

Runed Cardinal Ruby = 36.11 dps vs Reckless Ametrine + bonus = 39.19 dps

Reckless Ametrine + 5 sp socket bonus > pure spellpower (23sp)

Or you can use my addon and let it do it for you automatically.

T8.5 legs gemmed with [Design: Reckless Ametrine] and [Design: Purified Dreadstone] are a dps loss over 2x [Item not found!].

Badge shoulders gemmed with [Design: Purified Dreadstone] are better than [Item not found!].

Well, in my case anyway, I just wanted to point out an example.

EDIT: shame on duckmistress for not using tools when you have them! And I hope that you are going well.

Duckmistress · 09/11/09, 10:52 AM

Lol Rhada, you know damn well I'm using Rhadatip!

Beveline · 09/12/09, 12:04 PM

Warlock_T8_00_13_58 Sta=0.00 Int=0.31 Spi=1.02 SP=1.59 Hit=3.57 Crit=0.82 Haste=1.10

These are the scale factors from the updated post on the Simcraft thread for my particular spec.

Using the badge shoulders as an example (and I have been experimenting with your addon and I am excited to use it, by the way!

)

Does your addon make the assumption that you need the purple gem in the shoulders to activate the meta gem? Because I cannot see removing, for example, the purple gem from my belt and losing the 7 spell damage bonus to replace it with a 5 spell damage bonus, versus just adding a 23 spell power gem to the shoulders and gaining more pure SP. According to the above scale factors, I would be much further ahead to sacrifice the Spirit for pure SP.

Would you concur?

I will be getting these shoulders tomorrow by the way...your addon (and the spreadsheet as well) confirmed that these are a huge upgrade versus the tier shoulders, so this question is kinda near and dear to my heart.

Edit: Ran Simcraft for my gear and here are my results for scaling

Weights : Sta=0.00 Int=0.26 Spi=1.05 SP=1.56 Hit=3.04 Crit=0.72 Haste=1.51

Unfortunately I didn't change out from my PvP trinket before I logged off (was doing Faction Champs)..I do have IotDS and am sure it will change the results, but I'd figure not by much as all it is adding is additonal SP.

Rhadamanthis · 09/12/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Beveline

Does your addon make the assumption that you need the purple gem in the shoulders to activate the meta gem?

I concur on what you wrote, and no the mod does not take the meta into consideration. You shouldn't have many problems finding out at least 2 sockets where the blue is the best gem possible (I have a few at the moment, head, neck, shoulders, boots). After that, you know by youself that you don't "need" more blues (although if they are a 1, 2 dps loss over another gem and you only have 2 blues already, you could go for versatility to avoid a possible regemming) and you will only care about the dps, so you could use the addon and if it says that you need to go red, you know that you can.

The best way to use it is to put purified dreadstone in /rt hc, so in tooltips you will see the value of the item obtained by mathcing the socket colour. Then use the optimizer and see the difference of dps between the tooltipped value (that is filled with purified) and the value displayed in the optimizer. Sometimes (t8 legs in my case), it is worth to ignore the bonus and go red, sometimes the dps gain is so insignificant that I prefer an extra blue for freedom, but anyone can choose differently of course.

Beveline · 09/12/09, 2:00 PM

You are a genius! I sat here and did some napkin math using my scales, please tell me if I am crazy:

12 damage/10 spirit vs. 23 damage

Dreadstone = 17 spell damage (26.52 dps) + 10 spirit (10.5 dps) = 37.02 dps increase

Ruby = 23 spell damage (35.88 dps) =35.88 dps increase

Awesome man...lifesaver!

Apparently using this logic I am going to have to start gemming for haste bonuses as well. Oh well...more honor to grind!

Rhadamanthis · 09/12/09, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Beveline

You are a genius! I sat here and did some napkin math using my scales, please tell me if I am crazy:

12 damage/10 spirit vs. 23 damage

Dreadstone = 17 spell damage (26.52 dps) + 10 spirit (10.5 dps) = 37.02 dps increase

Ruby = 23 spell damage (35.88 dps) =35.88 dps increase

Awesome man...lifesaver!

Apparently using this logic I am going to have to start gemming for haste bonuses as well. Oh well...more honor to grind!

Just a quick tip, currently hit gems are not included in the optimizer, so if you aren't hit capped, the optimizer might be lieing.

Beveline · 09/12/09, 4:48 PM

Oddly it seems that a Spellstone may be a bigger DPS increase for me versus a Firestone.

What is the best way to figure out how much the 1% Direct Damage of the Firestone is worth? Is it certainly a 1% DPS increase?

Ios · 09/12/09, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Beveline

Oddly it seems that a Spellstone may be a bigger DPS increase for me versus a Firestone.

What is the best way to figure out how much the 1% Direct Damage of the Firestone is worth? Is it certainly a 1% DPS increase?

It's somewhat dependent on the fight, due to the fact that you can CoA adds for extra damage. In the majority of my wws parses, however, direct damage accounts for approximately 91% of my overall damage done. That means that a firestone is doing about .91% of my overall damage, or around 60 dps (assuming you're doing about 6.5k), plus about 40.2 dps from the crit. A spellstone would provide about .09% additional damage from periodic spells, or about 6 dps, plus about 66 dps from the haste. I'm using the scale factors from simcraft for 0_13_58, so ymmv.
The math is rough, but basically:
firestone = ~100 dps
spellstone= ~72 dps

tatterz · 09/14/09, 12:34 AM

So I have a question as I recently came back from the game after a break. I am trying to learn how I can do the math to see how much of a dps upgrade 1 item is vs the current one I have. For example I have Staff of Endless Winter how much would a dps upgrade would the Twins 10 hard staff be. Obviously the item is a clear upgrade, but I want to know the exact numbers so I can use it for other items as well.

Rhadamanthis · 09/14/09, 4:37 AM

Originally Posted by tatterz

So I have a question as I recently came back from the game after a break. I am trying to learn how I can do the math to see how much of a dps upgrade 1 item is vs the current one I have. For example I have Staff of Endless Winter how much would a dps upgrade would the Twins 10 hard staff be. Obviously the item is a clear upgrade, but I want to know the exact numbers so I can use it for other items as well.

To know the exact numbers you need to find your scaling values. They will tell you how much dps you will gain with 1 more point in any of the dps contributing stats.

To find the scaling values, you can run a simulator, like SimulationCraft, or a spreadsheet, like this.

If you do not know how to run them by youself, you can take a peek at collections of scaling values, they won't be perfect, but you will still get a nice idea.

Once you have the scaling values, you can either multiply the item stats * scaling values on a napkin, hoping that the hit cap won't drive you crazy, or have my addon do it for you (it does exactly what you are looking for).

linelh · 10/01/09, 6:13 AM

I didn't find any post since 3.2 about this (in advance, sorry if I miss it) but:
Within a raid 25 with destrolock and arcane mage (T8-T9 stuff level), wich one is the most opti between an afflilock and a firemage?
Between imp. scorsh and ISB, does someone calculate Rdps up and personal dps loss?

(Sorry, english isn't my main language)

krilz · 10/01/09, 9:56 AM

To be honest, the best one to put up the 5% crit debuff IMO is a Meta/Ruin spec. Not only does it give ISB but also DP which is great (and superb if you don't have an elemental shaman).

Sorwoe · 10/27/09, 4:40 PM

I'm getting the oddest results on Simcraft. The weighting for haste seems totally off.

Scale Factors (with hit manually cranked up to max):
Int Spi SP Hit Crit Haste
0.30 1.06 1.60 0.00 0.85 0.95

Am I doing something wrong... or does spr. actually overtake haste at my gear level?

Below is the import obtained from wow armory.

#!./simc 

warlock=Sorrowe
origin=http://us.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ursin&n=Sorrowe
level=80
race=human
professions=enchanting=450/tailoring=450
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=9&tal=000000000000000000000000000003220030003000000000000000005203205210331051335230351
glyphs=conflagrate/curse_of_exhausion/unending_breath/life_tap/drain_soul/incinerate
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/fire_stone
actions+=/fel_armor
actions+=/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/life_tap,buff_refresh=1
actions+=/wild_magic_potion,bloodlust=1
actions+=/immolate
actions+=/conflagrate
actions+=/chaos_bolt
actions+=/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=80
actions+=/incinerate
actions+=/life_tap,mana_percentage<=20,buff_refresh=1,moving=1
actions+=/corruption,time_to_die>=20,moving=1
actions+=/curse_of_agony,time_to_die>=30,moving=1
actions+=/life_tap
head=kelthuzads_hood_of_triumph,stats=269armor_82crit_131sp_103sta_103int_74spi,gems=chaotic_skyflare_12sp_10spi_9sp,enchant=30sp_20crit
neck=pendant_of_fiery_havoc,stats=46hit_41haste_75sp_61sta_51int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp
shoulders=pauldrons_of_revered_mortality,stats=248armor_59haste_109sp_77sta_77int_67spi,gems=12sp_10spi_5sp,enchant=24sp_15crit
shirt=green_workmans_shirt
chest=kelthuzads_robe_of_triumph,stats=331armor_82hit_140sp_103sta_103int_82spi,gems=23sp_12sp_10spi_7sp,enchant=10str_10agi_10sta_10int_10spi
waist=cord_of_the_tenebrous_mist,stats=195armor_60haste_114sp_86sta_86int_76spi,gems=12sp_10spi_23sp_23sp_7sp
legs=kelthuzads_leggings_of_triumph,stats=290armor_90crit_74haste_140sp_103sta_103int,gems=23sp_10haste_12sp_7sp,enchant=50sp_20spi
feet=boots_of_fiery_resolution,stats=223armor_55haste_102sp_72sta_72int_64spi,gems=23sp_10haste_12sp_6haste,enchant=12crit_12hit
wrists=bejeweled_wizards_bracers,stats=145armor_42crit_50haste_80sp_58sta_58int,gems=23sp,enchant=30sp
hands=kelthuzads_gloves_of_triumph,stats=207armor_59hit_67crit_109sp_77sta_77int,gems=23sp_4crit,enchant=28sp
finger1=firestorm_ring,stats=56hit_33crit_80sp_54sta_59int,gems=23sp_5sp,enchant=23sp
finger2=signet_of_manifested_pain,stats=46crit_36haste_74sp_46sta_49int,enchant=23sp
trinket1=eye_of_the_broodmother,stats=87crit,equip=onspellhit_25sp_5stack_10dur
trinket2=illustration_of_the_dragon_soul,equip=onspellhit_20sp_10stack_10dur
back=shawl_of_the_refreshing_winds,stats=166armor_50haste_89sp_58sta_58int_50spi,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=blade_of_tarasque,stats=400hit_57haste_692sp_48sta_65int,gems=23sp,enchant=63sp,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_125.1dps
off_hand=symbol_of_transgression,stats=50hit_50crit_89sp_58sta_58int
ranged=rod_of_imprisoned_souls,stats=31crit_24haste_50sp_40sta_29int
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=10
# gear_agility=10
# gear_stamina=1054
# gear_intellect=1058
# gear_spirit=484
# gear_spell_power=2681
# gear_hit_rating=356
# gear_crit_rating=600
# gear_haste_rating=542
# gear_armor=2074
# meta_gem=chaotic_skyflare
# tier9_2pc_caster=1
# tier9_4pc_caster=1
# back=shawl_of_the_refreshing_winds,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
# main_hand=blade_of_tarasque,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_125.1dps

Johnneke · 10/27/09, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sorwoe

I'm getting the oddest results on Simcraft. The weighting for haste seems totally off.

Scale Factors (with hit manually cranked up to max):
Int Spi SP Hit Crit Haste
0.30 1.06 1.60 0.00 0.85 0.95

Am I doing something wrong... or does spr. actually overtake haste at my gear level?

Yes at your gear level spirit actually is better then haste indeed, once you get more spirit haste will again slightly overtake spirit.

crunchyblack · 11/05/09, 2:07 AM

-delete-

zuke8675309 · 11/05/09, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by Beveline

You are a genius! I sat here and did some napkin math using my scales, please tell me if I am crazy:

12 damage/10 spirit vs. 23 damage

Dreadstone = 17 spell damage (26.52 dps) + 10 spirit (10.5 dps) = 37.02 dps increase

Ruby = 23 spell damage (35.88 dps) =35.88 dps increase

Awesome man...lifesaver!

Apparently using this logic I am going to have to start gemming for haste bonuses as well. Oh well...more honor to grind!

Ok, I understand about scale factors...
However, 10 spirit converts to 3.9 spellpower via Fel Armor, right? So for the purified dreadstone you get 12 + 3.9 + 5 = 20.9 spellpower from gemming the purified dreadstone vs 23 spellpower from a runed cardinal ruby.

How is the dreadstone better or what am I missing?