Fury DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm - Page 25

Moifern · 01/28/11, 3:39 PM

I've been using 18% hit for raids and just now switched to 13% hit and gemmed 20crit/20hit. I've been able to get my initial burst to 15k, sustain 12-13k for a couple minutes but then due to rage starvation from all the white hit misses.

I've yet to test this out in raid (as I know training dummies can be very inaccurate), but I have noticed that Heroic Strike is a poor choice for the standard BS>HS>RB rotation. RBs 20 rage dump is much easier to manage than the 30 rage dump per heroic strike. (I am also only at 2/3 incite for 3/3 wounds which could explain why it is inefficient for me).

Just for some insight, how is the 13% hit faring in raids regarding rage?

Deathwing · 01/29/11, 12:06 AM

Took Collision's tweaks of my tweaks of his tweaks and tweaked it some more!

actions=flask,type=titanic_strength
actions+=/food,type=beer_basted_crocolisk
actions+=/stance,choose=berserker,if=!in_combat
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/golemblood_potion,if=!in_combat|buff.bloodlust.react
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/recklessness
actions+=/death_wish
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=((rage>85&target.health_pct>=20)|buff.battle_trance.up|buff.incite.u p|(buff.colossus_smash.up&((rage>=55&target.health_pct>=20)|(rage>=75&target.health_p ct<20))))
actions+=/execute,if=buff.executioner_talent.remains<1.5
actions+=/colossus_smash
actions+=/execute,if=buff.executioner_talent.stack<5
actions+=/bloodthirst
actions+=/berserker_rage,if=!(buff.death_wish.up|buff.enrage.up|buff.unholy_frenzy.up)&rage>15& cooldown.raging_blow.remains<1
actions+=/raging_blow
actions+=/slam,if=buff.bloodsurge.react
actions+=/execute,if=rage<=20|rage>=50
actions+=/battle_shout,if=rage<70

Only real changes are to heroic strike(separated out colossus smash under 20%, guess you want ensure more rage to keep up the executioner stack), and the rage clause on the execute dump at the bottom. The idea there is that you execute at 20 rage or less, in which execute deals less DPE than bloodthirst and raging blow, BUT its instantaneous rage cost(rage/GCD) is inline with your average RPS(12-14 usually). Or, you can hit a big 30 rage one if you have 50 or more. The idea is that you have a free GCD and the rage conditions are correct as to not disrupt any of your other abilities during execute phase. Kinda sad, execute getting in the way of other abilities during execute phase.

That last execute action will probably go ahead of slam for TG. And it might for SMF if it turns out Simcraft is still using 174% slam internally too. Also, the rage limits on heroic strike will most likely have to be tailored for each player's gear. Corresponding to their rage generation, which is probably why Collision and I keep going back and forth on this(I'm betting we aren't using the same set of gear to theory this). I used a build skewed towards mastery, and when I did the stat weightings, hit came out between mastery and crit. Haste was the only real garbage stat.

EDIT: Just a few more thoughts on that last execute action. It might be better to split it up into two separate actions. I imagine that the 20 or less execute will eventually go ahead of slam for both specs, depending on rage input. But you'd obviously have to put a minimum rage input on there, as 10 rage executes will not be worth hitting anymore unless you have absolutely nothing else to do, and they definitely don't do more damage than slam.

But this all might be an exercise in theory. In practice, it's probably best to leave the execute BELOW slam. Doing an execute instead of slam is essentially "stealing" rage from heroic strike. Although nerfed hard, heroic strike is STILL a better rage dump option during execute phase due to the buffs to other abilities and that execute is on the GCD and heroic strike isn't. Because of this, the condition you'll most likely use a heroic strike during execute phase is when colossus smash is up. The best you can ever hope is getting one execute during the buff, but most likely none. But it's very easy to get one to two heroic strikes during CS. And a CS'd HS is probably equal to a non-CS's execute. Hence why using that last execute as anything but free-gcd rage dump will probably never work out, barring tweaks to execute's scaling.

Collision · 01/29/11, 6:05 AM

I'm betting we aren't using the same set of gear to theory this

You are correct. I ran the numbers on both my own character and the 372 BIS 1H Fury premade set and they are different. I ended up going with the rage-numbers from my own character as it is a better example of what a person's gear will look like at this juncture. Let's just use the 372 1H Premade on Simcraft from now on.

I believe using a CS HS will be better than using a non-CS execute for all gear-levels and saving your rage by using bloodsurge procs will be best for SMF. The damage numbers are probably similar, but the possibility of an incite proc should push it ahead. Titan's grip, as you mentioned, will probably move the execute action above slam.

I agree with everything you said about Execute. Unfortunately, right now it's really messy when trying to min/max everything, and I think for the average player it'll have to be dumbed down to "Only use execute when you have < 5 stacks of executioner, or if the buff is about to expire within 2 seconds."

dedmonwakeen · 01/29/11, 7:34 AM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

That last execute action will probably go ahead of slam for TG. And it might for SMF if it turns out Simcraft is still using 174% slam internally too.

The most recent SimC (v29) has this fixed. The client tool tip data that we parse still has 174% so I had to override it for now.

Gantz · 01/29/11, 8:06 AM

Apologies if this subject has been covered before, I had a look to see if it had but couldn’t see anything relating to it.

The recent discussions started in relation to 4.06 and potential changes to stat priorities, ref. Hit stacking, made me think about that most important of warrior resources “rage”. Now that it has been normalised, hitting things and shouts have become the staple of how we generate it and consequently Hit and Haste became the stats that have the greatest control over this once expertise is capped. Consequently I was curious about how the relative magnitude of hit and haste rating affects the benefit of reforging these stats in regards to rage generated over time.

In order to examine this I set up a spreadsheet to calculate rage generated on a hypothetical 10minute fight with no movement or AoE damage and ignoring additional rage from shouts etc. as they would be constant. Obviously this is an entirely fabricated scenario which wouldn’t happen in game, but I wanted to keep things simple for a start.

Assumptions:
1. Expertise is capped
2. Player is standing behind boss to eliminate parry
3. Hits by Main and Off hand are considered to be simultaneous
4. Rage per hit = 23.4 (weapon speed of both weapons is 3.6)
5. Hit rating co-efficient = 0.008327
6. Haste rating co-efficient = 0.007808
7. 3% additional hit from talents
8. Chance to miss boss = 27%

Calculation:
Rage generated (R), Swings (S), Total number of hits (H), Total number of misses (M), Effective weapon speed (WE), Base Weapon speed (WB), Percentage chance to hit (%Hit), Percentage Haste (%Has), Hit Rating (Hit R), Haste Rating (Has R)

1. Rage [R] = (6.5 * Base Weapon speed [Wb]) * Hits [H]
2. H = Swings [S] – Misses [M]
3. S = (600 / Effective weapon seppd [We]) * 2
4. M = S * ((27 - %Hit)/100)
5. We = Wb – (Wb * (%Has / 100))
6. %Hit = Hit Rating * 0.008327
7. %Haste = Haste Rating * 0.007808

Results:
Using my current stats (%Hit = 21.9, %Haste = 3.4) and extrapolating +/- to each stat in 25point increments I obtain the following graph.

Currently I have 250 haste rating reforged to hit rating and was slightly surprised to see that swapping it back would only lose me 1 rage over this fight, and were I to reforge both this and 250 hit to haste then I'd gain 4 rage. Now I would still rather have the hit as it gives more stable rage generation over time with less miss streaks. However, with 4.06 and the change in rotation priorities this will have a major impact on the amount of rage we nominally need to use specials for optimal damage. Consequently being able to estimate the amount of rage required to achieve this rotation would be important, but I'm having trouble working out what it should be. Does anyone have any ideas about how to go about this post 4.06?

With a figure for optimal rage generated it would then be possible to look at the available reforging budget for hit and haste going to mastery or crit.

DemisedOne · 01/30/11, 2:04 AM

Forgive me for asking this here but a while ago someone suggested an add-on that sends the command or stroke of the key when a button is pressed not released. I can remember landsoul commenting on this but I do not remember the add-on name. Does anyone else know this add-on or know how this could be configured?

I asked in add-on section but I don’t think it got viewed to much and since it was discussed here as a possible dps increase before I figured it would be ok.

Macar · 01/30/11, 3:00 AM

Originally Posted by DemisedOne

Forgive me for asking this here but a while ago someone suggested an add-on that sends the command or stroke of the key when a button is pressed not released. I can remember landsoul commenting on this but I do not remember the add-on name. Does anyone else know this add-on or know how this could be configured?

I asked in add-on section but I don’t think it got viewed to much and since it was discussed here as a possible dps increase before I figured it would be ok.

I think this might help you: SnowfallKeyPress : Action Bar Mods : WoWInterface AddOns

ComMcNeil · 01/30/11, 12:03 PM

Also, this functionality is also built in into the ActionBar addon Bartender, so you do not need a seperate addon

Hozzenplozz · 01/30/11, 12:46 PM

Regarding rage generation, weapon speed can be taken out of the equation by looking at rage per second (rps). With expertise cap, fully hit capped and 0% haste we get 2x6.5 = 13rps. Every percent hit we are missing to the hard cap costs us 13rps * 1% = 0.13rps. Therefore the benefit of hit is always 0.13rps per 1% hit. The rage benefit of 1% haste is [actual rps] * 1%:

At 8% hit: The benefit is 0.81*13rps*1% = 0.1053rps, where 0.81 is your chance to hit.
At 26% hit: The benefit is 0.99*13rps*1%=0.1287rps.
At 27% hit: The benefit is 1.00*13rps*1%=0.13rps.

So, up to the hard cap hit is always superior to haste concerning rage generation, even more so regarding the higher rating requirement for 1% haste (~128) compared to 1% hit (~120). Reforging haste to hit should always net more rage per second (up to the hard cap of course). From this perspective I do not understand the curve in Gantz' post.

Gantz · 01/30/11, 1:52 PM

Hozzenplozz

It hinges on whether the equation to calulate effective weapon speed is, We = Wb – (Wb * (%Has / 100)), as within a fixed timeframe there is a point at which haste creates more hits than hit. This amount appears to decrease with increasing hit and thus haste becomes an increasingly valuable stat at higher hit levels, creating the shape of the graph I initially posted.

Consequently you cannot ignore weapon speed in regards to rage generated. However, I could be wrong about the equation, in which case you would be correct.

Trokak · 01/30/11, 8:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gantz

Hozzenplozz

It hinges on whether the equation to calulate effective weapon speed is, We = Wb – (Wb * (%Has / 100)), as within a fixed timeframe there is a point at which haste creates more hits than hit. This amount appears to decrease with increasing hit and thus haste becomes an increasingly valuable stat at higher hit levels, creating the shape of the graph I initially posted.

Consequently you cannot ignore weapon speed in regards to rage generated. However, I could be wrong about the equation, in which case you would be correct.

Your equation is indeed incorrect. Its easily seen by the fact that it would leave you at 0s Attack speed with a theoretical value of 100% haste. The correct formula is:

Enhanced Speed=Base Speed/(1 + haste%/100%)

Wich leaves you at the above stated increase of 1% more hits compared to unhasted per percent of haste.

Nastran · 01/30/11, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gantz

Hozzenplozz

It hinges on whether the equation to calulate effective weapon speed is, We = Wb – (Wb * (%Has / 100)), as within a fixed timeframe there is a point at which haste creates more hits than hit. This amount appears to decrease with increasing hit and thus haste becomes an increasingly valuable stat at higher hit levels, creating the shape of the graph I initially posted.

Consequently you cannot ignore weapon speed in regards to rage generated. However, I could be wrong about the equation, in which case you would be correct.

Trokak and Hozzenplozz are correct.

Haste increases your number of attacks in a given time period (e.g. having 100% haste would halve your attack speed). If you use the equation for haste that Trokak provided and using the same assumptions you did, you can come up with an equation for rage generation as a function of hit and haste, which is what I think you were going for. If you go through the derivation you’ll see that weapon speed does indeed drop out, just like Hozz said.

The equation you will get is:

RPS(rage per second) = f(hit,haste) = 6.5*(1+haste)*(.83+hit)

Where haste=.00007808*haste rating, and hit=.00008327*hit rating. I guess this equation would also be multiplied by 2 for dual wielding, assuming the offhand generates rage using the same equation, but you get the idea. You can also take the derivative of this with respect to hit and haste to show that

dRPS/dhit = 6.5*(1+haste)
dRPS/dhaste = 6.5*(.83+hit)

Basically what this says is that the haste and hit are dependent on each other for how valuable they are in rage generation. Most importantly it shows that for rage generation purposes haste is always the weaker stat until you are hit capped. This difference between the stats is exaggerated even further due to the fact that hit and haste rating are valued the same in game, but you get more bang for your buck from hit rating due to the coefficients.

Gantz · 01/31/11, 6:02 AM

Thanks for the replies, Hozz sent me the corect equation earlier so substituting that into the calculations I get a straight line, which shows reforging haste to hit is always beneficial for rage generation. So the next step is to work out how much rage would be required to support the new rotation post 4.06, where having excess rage for HS isn't as important. That way I can get an estime of how much haste I can reforge away from hit to crit / mastery depending on which gives more damage.

Montegomery · 01/31/11, 11:28 AM

Anything beyond 26 Expertise and 8% Hit is essentially surplus post-4.0.6, which means all Haste is surplus. Between Flurry, shouts, Battle Trance and glyphed Berserker Rage we have more rage generation than is required to keep Bloodthirst, Raging Blow and Colossus Smash on cooldown. This doesn't even account for rage from damage taken, Windfury, or any period where Raging Blow can't be used.

The random number generator might step in occasionally to try and make life difficult, but it shouldn't be hard to maintain the rotation so long as we avoid Heroic Strike like the plague.

Darkerpulse · 02/02/11, 4:39 AM

I understand that normally, haste leads to an increase in weapon speed, which increases in value as you reach a higher hit percentage, maxing out at 27%

This brings two questions to mind, however.

The first being: Doesn't the proc from flurry (25% attack speed for 3 attacks) cause haste's return to diminish?
If the previous is true, wouldn't that mean that executioner would cause haste to diminish even further as it stacks up?

With those two in mind, I've been reforging as much haste / mastery out of my gear as possible in favor of crit whenever possible.