Fury DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm - Page 3

Brakthir · 10/17/10, 6:29 PM

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.

Ruke · 10/17/10, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Brakthir

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.

I start every fight at range, and use heroic throw before I intercept (so it doesn't reset swing timer, since I'm not even in range to swing yet). You'll notice in 5 runs I use 5 heroic throws, one for the start of combat on each run. Just a way to gain a small bit of extra damage at the start of a fight.

Start of my fight (in a raid) typically looks like Recklessness > Armor Pot seconds before combat starts. As soon as combat starts I Death Wish > Heroic Throw > Intercept and start the normal rotation. I always try to get to 100 rage before a fight starts so I can do all of the previous, which is usually pretty easy to do (especially now).

I don't use Heroic Throw in the middle of a fight unless it's one that requires movement, then I might heroic throw before intercept for a target switch I need to run to.

EDIT: Ugh, scratch the armor pot thing. I forgot they got rid of the armor > AP conversion. Thanks for correction cbgoding.

cbgoding · 10/17/10, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by Brakthir

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.

You do only use it at range. But what other major is a dps increase?

Originally Posted by Ruke

Armor Pot

We don't have AttT anymore.

Seerow · 10/17/10, 6:53 PM

Originally Posted by Brakthir

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.

I've been thinking about using Heroic Throws as part of the rotation. You're right about it resetting the swing timer, but you could easily get a swing timer addon, the trick is trying find an open gcd where you're at the start of a swing. I mean it is rage free, decent damage, and adds a sunder, so it's worth using if you can manage it.

Anduryondon · 10/17/10, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ruke

I start every fight at range, and use heroic throw before I intercept (so it doesn't reset swing timer, since I'm not even in range to swing yet). You'll notice in 5 runs I use 5 heroic throws, one for the start of combat on each run. Just a way to gain a small bit of extra damage at the start of a fight.

Even if you're not in range to swing it resets your swing timer. So unless you wait more than a gcd for intercept you still lose ~2 seconds until your next swing comes out.

Musclebound · 10/17/10, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Seerow

I've been thinking about using Heroic Throws as part of the rotation. You're right about it resetting the swing timer, but you could easily get a swing timer addon, the trick is trying find an open gcd where you're at the start of a swing. I mean it is rage free, decent damage, and adds a sunder, so it's worth using if you can manage it.

With Colossus Smash being part of both Arms and Fury's rotation, and since the glyph refreshes sunders on the target, there will be no reason to Heroic Throw at later levels.

Seerow · 10/17/10, 8:30 PM

Originally Posted by Musclebound

With Colossus Smash being part of both Arms and Fury's rotation, and since the glyph refreshes sunders on the target, there will be no reason to Heroic Throw at later levels.

Maybe not for the sunder (though phases where you're forced out of range, having a ranged refresh is useful, rather than having to restack sunders), but even as a damage dealing ability, if you can use it perfectly (ie not interrupting a swing, or at least clipping little of it), it will be a dps gain. Realize, now that we're rage limited, damage per rage means everything. A 100% rage free attack that hits for about as much as BT is worth using.

Maybe not quite so much now that BT was buffed, and HT appears to not have been, but really any rage free damage we can come up with is going to be good. If you can time your HT such that it doesn't interrupt a swing timer (or interrupts less of it than the damage you gain from it. How much of a swing that is I'm not really sure), then it will be a dps increase until we get to a point where we have every gcd filled and are hitting HS on cooldown. We're really not even at that extreme point on live in 4.0.1 where we have massively inflated stats, I don't think we'll ever get to that point come cata.

bubuman · 10/18/10, 1:56 AM

HT definitely is a dps gain when used in the right moments. Implementing it in the rotation wouldn't help much but at occasions where you got all your abilities in a cool-down, even if its a half second wait, you can make use of it. I don't know about you guys but my HTs have a pretty high average dps and since my crit is past 50% its mostly a win-win situation; i use em as the first ability right after a pull and throw em in whenever possible. On most times where you don't have enough rage for a HS, it'll come in perfect.

Rurik · 10/18/10, 2:34 AM

After doing ICC last night I feel there are quite some situations where the raid damage taken allows me to use slam in the free, so not specing bloodsurge would be a loss of DPS in those situations. If the rage is avaliable it's bad not to be able to spend it, and when there's raid damage there's rage. There is nothing else i'd rather use the free on than a slam assuming i have rage.

Heroic throw I only use when running and most fights offer opportunities for it.

Ruke · 10/18/10, 2:43 AM

Originally Posted by Rurik

After doing ICC last night I feel there are quite some situations where the raid damage taken allows me to use slam in the free, so not specing bloodsurge would be a loss of DPS in those situations. If the rage is avaliable it's bad not to be able to spend it, and when there's raid damage there's rage. There is nothing else i'd rather use the free on than a slam assuming i have rage.

Heroic throw I only use when running and most fights offer opportunities for it.

Correct if wrong, but I'm rather certain you only receive 1 point of rage when you take damage now.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in patch notes or not as I didn't keep up with all of them, but it's pretty easy to test. Unless there's something I'm missing, I haven't seen any damage taken give more than 1 point of rage on the few occasions I looked for it.

Rurik · 10/18/10, 2:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ruke

Correct if wrong, but I'm rather certain you only receive 1 point of rage when you take damage now.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in patch notes or not as I didn't keep up with all of them, but it's pretty easy to test. Unless there's something I'm missing, I haven't seen any damage taken give more than 1 point of rage on the few occasions I looked for it.

I might well be wrong, if so it's down to being hit capped and focusing on haste rather than crit that made the rotation flow good and allowed for slamming too. I just can't see what you would drop bloodsurge for to get a higher DPS increase.

cutterx2202 · 10/18/10, 3:24 AM

Not sure if this was posted yet, but I found 738 is the exact rating to cap out hit with precision.
(738=24%) + 3% = 27%

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5946/hitcap.png

Moozhe · 10/18/10, 3:45 AM

Originally Posted by Sentia

I use glyphed Heroic throws to put sunders up.

Heroic Throw is a 1min CD, Sunder Armor is a 30 second debuff. I don't see how there is any point to this.

Originally Posted by Ruke

I start every fight at range, and use heroic throw before I intercept (so it doesn't reset swing timer, since I'm not even in range to swing yet).

If you do this, then you won't land any autoswings for 2-3 seconds at the start of the fight while you wait for your swing timer to reset. You lose 3 seconds of autoswing rage generation and the white damage itself.

Originally Posted by Seerow

You're right about it resetting the swing timer, but you could easily get a swing timer addon...

This won't work unless your weapons are the exact same speed and are kept synchronized. Different speed weapons will get farther and farther apart, but when you Heroic Throw it will reset both your mainhand and offhand swing timer.

Also note that, even if you have two weapons of the same speed, by default the swing timers will be staggered when you start attacking. You can either Heroic Throw to synchronize them, or if the target is attackable before you pull, if you start autoattacking from range (so that your character draws his weapons and will begin autoswinging as soon as the target is in range), then your attacks will be synchronized.

Heroic Throw should be a DPS loss if you are dual wielding with different speed weapons.

kazoozle · 10/18/10, 1:41 PM

In all of my own tests, going to haste from crit has been a dps loss. I've tried a lot of different comparisons of haste vs crit. Right now i'm sitting with hard capped hit, ~10% haste and 41% crit. I've been holding a pretty consistent 9.1-9.2k dps on the dummys. When I dropped it down to about 35% crit, I was topping out around 8.8. This was with multiple tests at both setups.

With heroic strike critting around 80% of the time and using it as soon as its off cooldown, flurry has almost 100% uptime.

Side note: to the guy using his macro as HS -> BT -> RB, every test I've ran shows that damage per rage output order would actually be RB-> BT -> HS.

If you were going for pure damage it would be HS-> RB -> BT. When looking at recount, keep in mind that raging blow shows up as two hits instead of 1 so it's damage is twice what it shows.

Over the course of an ICC run my average damages were:

HS->18k
RB->16k
BT->13k

Side note: I'm saying execute is spammable at 20%.

It was averaging 25k per hit at 30 rage. that gives it the highest overall damage and DPR. (40k crits make me happy)

hikarodesu · 10/18/10, 2:02 PM

Talking about the order of abilities used, I personally prefer to do BT -> HS -> RB, clicking HS a couple of milliseconds after BT (rather than clicking at the same time) this is to ensure that BT is used first, so if you get a battle trance proc it is used on HS and not on RB. I'm not sure when other people are queuing HS in their rotation, but that's what I find most effective, as well as how I'd set it up if I were to use a 1 hit macro.