Shha is suggesting you create a spec with both 31-pt talents, using Titan's Grip 2H advantage for the main part of the fights, and switching to one-handers at the execute range, thereby activating Single-Minded Fury and it's 15% damage increase on 1-handers. You still can't change spec in battle.
I think I agree with thebitterfig, execute phases tend to be short and probably it won't be a DPS increase. But it would be nice seeing some numbers.
Oh that clears that up. Shha usd the phrase 'Dual Spec' which made me think he was talking about the actual Dual Spec mechanic. I think that if speccing into both 31-pointers ever became the optimum way for fury, blizzard would change them to be mutually exclusive. It's apparent that they want it to be a choice of feel for Warriors rather than another element to min/max over... and I'm sure they don't want Fury to need four weapons each tier to maximise their damage. It'll be interesting to see how they keep the specs balanced though, seeing as TG was a balance nightmare all through Wrath and now they're trying to balance SMF and TG at the same time.
First off, I have to say that the new tricks/MD system is very difficult to work around. I am hoping that an addon that simply ignores threat gained by TotT will come along shorty, since managing threat with CDs at the start is very difficult for me, I am doing around 24k DPS on single target fights and well over 30k at the start of a pull. I am also probably going to try out the TG/SMF for execute build this week in ICC, but I am still unsure how to handle when to heroic strike while in execute range.
EDIT - I had a long post about Chaos Bane being able to crit, but after googling around, apparently this has been an anomoly for a very long time. Apologies.
Last edited by Harpo : 10/21/10 at 9:27 PM.
Reason: Old information.
I think the calculations are a bit off. I'm gonna stick with your same numbers for required rage per minute, just a different calculation for rage from weapons. This is kind of hard to follow due to my inability to type coherently, so bear with me.
The rage from melee would be 60sec * 6.5 rage per sec * (1+haste) instead of divided by 1-haste as 100% haste would mean a 50% reduction in swing speed or doubling the rage. dividing by 1-haste would give an infinite value as it approached 100%. multiplying by 1+haste gives a constant rage addition equal to haste.
Swing time = Weapon Speed/(1+Haste)
Rage Per Second = 6.5 * Weapon Speed/Swing Time = 6.5 * (1+haste)
60seconds*(6.5+3.25)rage per second*(1+haste) = 1110
swapping that around it would actually come out to 77.35% haste
These are my actual weapon speeds as I added buffs.
Base Weapon Speed: 3.6sec pure haste (haste on gear equivalent) = weapon speed/swing time
With 12.20% haste: 3.21sec (3.6/1.122) pure haste = 12.2%
With 12.20% haste + flurry: 2.57sec (3.6/1.122)/(1.25) pure haste equiv of 40.1%
With 12.20% haste + flurry + icy talons: 2.33sec (2.57/1.1) pure haste equiv of 54.51%
With 12.20% haste + flurry + icy talons + bloodlust: 1.80sec (2.33/1.3) pure haste equiv of 100%
blood lust + flurry + ice talons is equivalent to 79% haste
TLDR:
Using Craghacks numbers....minumum haste for perfect rotation is
With only flurry: 41.88%
With flurry + icy talons: 28.98%
I apologize for the amount of mixed quoting and response here.
3. 100% enrage and flurry uptime (ideal scenario)
Flurry uptime is calculated by: 1 - (1-C)^N
Where C is your crit chance, S is your number of specials per second and N is your number of attacks in 3 swings. 3 swings happens in 3T = 3/((1/mh)+(1/oh)) seconds then modified by haste effects. This includes the 3 melee plus any specials, and is essentially 3 + 3TS where S is number of specials/second (in this rotation S is 5.49/6, including BSSlam procs at 30% per BT).
The 1.1 is Improved Icy Talons etc. The 1.25 is flurry (100% uptime). The 1 is from 30 rage / 30 sec from shouting.
I do not think it is worth counting the berserker rage income as you should prioritize BR for enraging yourself for RB which means you can't reliably use it every cooldown. If you want to add it in it is 5/24 rage/sec, but its not a big factor.
It is also worth noting how significant flurry uptime is here. Dropping to 88% uptime from 100% (around about what I'm seeing with my current reforging) increases required haste to 38.7%.
My understanding is that haste isn't applied that way. H haste multiplies (thus reducing) your swing timer by 1/(1+H). This increases your rage generation by (1+H). as you get this many more swings in the same time.
Unless I have been the idiot here, which is entirely possible. If my math is wrong please correct me.
Edit: remove falsified conjecture that Battle Trance procced from the BT aura.
Battle Trance does not proc from BT, but at the same time as the first heal from the BT buff, that is on the first hit (melee or special) after BT. With this rotation nearly all of the time you will proc Battle Trance with HS instead of consuming it. (At least, that has been my observation from testing and combat log analysis, testing by others would be much appreciated.)
I ran some tests where I was approaching a target dummy and letting two synchronized melee attacks go off, then hitting BT and pressing ESC before any more melee hits can land.
You'll note by the timestamps that Bloodthirst procs its first heal at the same time that it lands, not the first attack after. And Battle Trance procs at the exact same second. I don't see how you could prove or disprove that it is proccing off of the heal or off of the Bloodthirst hit, but the tooltip indicates it procs from Bloodthirst hits so one can assume that's what it's doing.
The conclusive way to prove it happens later is to do exactly what you are doing, have it not come up, then do 1 more attack and have it apply then. I have not managed to do that I only have the combat logs. It's nice to have someone else test this -- I have high latency so I may be seeing odd effects.
Perhaps it has changed in the Beta too.
This is an example of what I see on live in the combat log, and I have manually confirmed that I can fire a HS off quickly after BT and have still Battle Trance up afterward. I can't rule out that this is an oddity of latency and/or the new spell queue, or HS being off the GCD actually firing first within some window even if cast after BT.
What I do know is if I macro BT and HS together (in that order) the HS will not consume Battle Trance if it procs from that BT. Can you test if that is the case for you, as I have seen a number of recommendations to do that and it might be a very bad idea.
10/20 22:50:08.890 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,23881,"Bloodthirst",0x1
10/20 22:50:08.890 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,1981,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,1,nil
10/20 22:50:09.273 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,23881,"Bloodthirst",0x1,5328,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
10/20 22:50:09.273 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,23885,"Bloodthirst",0x1,BUFF
10/20 22:50:09.674 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,78,"Heroic Strike",0x1
10/20 22:50:09.674 SPELL_HEAL,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,23880,"Bloodthirst",0x1,191,191,0,nil
10/20 22:50:09.674 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,12964,"Battle Trance",0x1,BUFF
10/20 22:50:09.679 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,78,"Heroic Strike",0x1,13192,-1,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
10/20 22:50:10.056 SPELL_HEAL,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,23880,"Bloodthirst",0x1,190,190,0,nil
10/20 22:50:10.056 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,23885,"Bloodthirst",0x1,BUFF
10/20 22:50:10.123 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,71396,"Rage of the Fallen",0x1,BUFF
10/20 22:50:10.256 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,3713,-1,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
10/20 22:50:10.456 SPELL_HEAL,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,23880,"Bloodthirst",0x1,190,190,0,nil
10/20 22:50:11.240 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,5473,-1,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
10/20 22:50:12.606 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,3705,-1,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
10/20 22:50:12.807 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0xF13079AA00002196,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,23881,"Bloodthirst",0x1
10/20 22:50:12.807 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,0x0300000000246FFC,"Xodiv",0x511,12964,"Battle Trance",0x1,BUFF
I have done some more testing and I think I have invalidated my original conclusion. Battle Trance is proccing off BT itself but there's definitely a delay before it does, and for me it looks like it can be half a second or more.
This may be a latency effect of some kind, my latency is about 260ms. Nevertheless it is long enough that BT and HS macroed together is a bad idea.
I'm also testing whether a BT that consumes Battle Trance can proc another Battle Trance.
After an hour on the training dummy and 996 Bloodthirsts I did not see one proc of Battle Trance from a Bloodthirst that consumed a previous Battle Trance. It is therefore very likely that Bloodthirst cannot proc Battle Trance if it consumes it.
This makes it even more important to consume the Battle Trance with Heroic Strike, as otherwise you will be removing a percentage of your Battle Trance procs, lowering it to between 12.5-13.75% chance to proc (depending on how many Slams you get in to use up the second proc in the rotation).
The conclusive way to prove it happens later is to do exactly what you are doing, have it not come up, then do 1 more attack and have it apply then. I have not managed to do that I only have the combat logs. It's nice to have someone else test this -- I have high latency so I may be seeing odd effects.
I tried about 40 times and did not see any procs off of melee hits consuming Bloodthirst charges. There are 3 charges per Bloodthirst so if it was doing this the Battle Trance proc rate would be around 3x higher than it should be. I am going to assume it is working as intended.
Originally Posted by Xodiv
What I do know is if I macro BT and HS together (in that order) the HS will not consume Battle Trance if it procs from that BT. Can you test if that is the case for you, as I have seen a number of recommendations to do that and it might be a very bad idea.
I have done some more testing and I think I have invalidated my original conclusion. Battle Trance is proccing off BT itself but there's definitely a delay before it does, and for me it looks like it can be half a second or more.
This may be a latency effect of some kind, my latency is about 260ms. Nevertheless it is long enough that BT and HS macroed together is a bad idea.
There is always going to be a delay with procs like this. The game server has to do the roll to determine the proc, and communicate to the client when a proc goes off. The higher your latency the longer it will be before you see the proc.
And macroing Bloodthirst and Heroic Strike together will never work for consuming the proc, no matter how low your latency.
Originally Posted by Xodiv
This makes it even more important to consume the Battle Trance with Heroic Strike, as otherwise you will be removing a percentage of your Battle Trance procs
Since both Bloodthirst and Heroic Strike have a 3 second cooldown, you should always be able to Heroic Strike to consume your Battle Trance without issues.
There is always going to be a delay with procs like this. The game server has to do the roll to determine the proc, and communicate to the client when a proc goes off. The higher your latency the longer it will be before you see the proc.
No and yes.
You are right: there is always going to be a delay before you see the proc, but that doesn't mean that there's a delay server-side before the proc applies. However, there is evidence now that there is a server-side delay. We would be happy if the proc happened immediately server-side regardless of the delay in it appearing, because we are going to use HS anyway and we don't care if we don't notice it was free immediately. This does not seem to be how it works.
And macroing Bloodthirst and Heroic Strike together will never work for consuming the proc, no matter how low your latency.
Why not? If the proc was applied immediately server side that wouldn't be true. Is there a reason why the server would need to communicate with the client in order to apply the proc buff?
Anyway, I think we have general agreement that it is better to delay HS until well after BT in the rotation.
I've seen some people walking around my server as SMF with 1h tank weapons, and I can see it being _kind of_ viable, but I wouldn't use anything apart from Heroic Last Word. From what I've heard from the tank in my guild that got it this week (and previous tanks I've talked to) it has a 100% uptime (unless they've hotfixed it), which on the normal 264 weapon, is 100 Str (115 on Heroic). And I see the healing buff isn't terrible either, I mean, I'd rather a pure DPS stat, but it does make healers' job if only a _little_ easier on fights with Aura-like damage.
I'm next in line to get my hands on one, but to get two would take at least two weeks, so I couldn't compare numbers until then. Anyone able to dual wield these on Live and provide numbers? I'd be interested to see the numbers.
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I've seen some people walking around my server as SMF with 1h tank weapons, and I can see it being _kind of_ viable, but I wouldn't use anything apart from Heroic Last Word. From what I've heard from the tank in my guild that got it this week (and previous tanks I've talked to) it has a 100% uptime (unless they've hotfixed it), which on the normal 264 weapon, is 100 Str (115 on Heroic). And I see the healing buff isn't terrible either, I mean, I'd rather a pure DPS stat, but it does make healers' job if only a _little_ easier on fights with Aura-like damage.
I'm next in line to get my hands on one, but to get two would take at least two weeks, so I couldn't compare numbers until then. Anyone able to dual wield these on Live and provide numbers? I'd be interested to see the numbers.
A note that the weapon proc does not stack (at least for 2 x normal version), the heroic version buff differs slightly, so I am not sure if the heroic and normal ones would stack.
That's a fair point, I didn't even think of that. Wielding Heroic MH and Normal OH would be the safe bet, because currently I can't see any reason why they wouldn't stack (as their procs are different, like you said), just like Solace/Unidentifiable Organ (Normal/Heroic) stacks. But currently, I'd only have access to heroic versions, and I doubt I could convince my guild to run a normal Putricide 25 and miss out on a Heroic mark for a 1/3 chance to get a weapon only used for testing.
Also, I've been meaning to get some opinions: for TG, now that hard capping Hit is important for most for stable rage regen, and Haste is nearly everywhere on our old ArP gear, would anyone consider using Tiny Abom in a Jar with their DBW if they don't have access to 284 RS trinket? Now that melee damage comprises the biggest % of damage in any given fight, it may come out as a DPS increase over the lower tiers of WFS/Herkuml War Token. But, again, I don't have one so I can't test.... yet.
I've been trying to test is SMF is viable lately. The proc uptime from Last Word is huge. Even in the offhand its very close to 100% however I dont think the damage is high enough to make it a viable MH weapon.
I am trying to get Black Bruise or Heartpierce to test it with. I've done a few Dummy tests with Tempered Vis'krag the Bloodletter (ilvl 245 wep), but these tests have come out a good 2k or around 20% less dps than my TG spec.
A few problems I'm finding that might cause this are:
1) My stat pool is too low to get the hard hit cap. I ran the tests with 25% hit. Also haste and crit are ~2-3% lower.
2) Hits from all my moves are much weaker although I get about the same damage distribution from moves
3) My MH weapon (Tempered Vis'krag) is only lvl 245
4) Slam still doesnt seem feasable as a dps or dpr ability
5) The low damage on Last Word seems to badly effect slam and RB (although I was under the assumption RB was normalized so this might just be hitting softer due to stats loss)
Anecdotally I'm not noticing any improvement in rage generation although I complete expected that due to the mechanics. There is also no noticable increase in enrage uptime although the decrease in hit and haste from stats may be a factor in this.Although I'm not sure how mastery effects RB I cant see mastery outweighing crit for dps gains even with what I would expect to be an increased enrage uptime. Prehaps players with the stat pool too maintain the most desired stats caps with decent ilvl 264+ weapons may beable to make this viable.
I totally forgot about Black Bruise. Perhaps 277 BB in Main and 277 Last Word in Off COULD be viable it works well being 2.6/1.8, but I agree that you'd need the stats to support it, especially Crit. I'll try get my hands on both this week and run some tests, because now I'm REALLY curious to see if someone could pull off SMF with similar numbers to TG in similar gear.
5) The low damage on Last Word seems to badly effect slam and RB (although I was under the assumption RB was normalized so this might just be hitting softer due to stats loss)
I think you're confusing normalized attacks with fixed damage. Normalized abilities like RB have their damage calculated as average weapon damage (which last word, even compared to a one-handed weapon, is lacking) plus an amount of AP/14 * a fixed weapon speed - which is higher for two-handed weapons (3.3 sec vs 2.4 sec).
When comparing damage per execution of slam with SMF vs TG, you also have to consider that recount and similar tools count a single SMG slam as to hits.
After reading one of the above posts, I realized that I had the 264 and 277 versions of Last Word sitting in my bank. All tests were 6 million damage on the heroic boss dummy. In addition, both procs stack, and give 105 and 121 STR respectively (with plate spec). The buffs easily have 100% uptime; they refresh every 1-3 seconds. The buffs do not seem to affect BT's healing.
With the 1h configs I dropped to 643 hit (opposed to hit capped with my TG spec), which obviously skews the data slightly.
TG - SM + Heroic Cryptmaker - 11.4k
SMF - Heroic and Normal Last Word - 9.2k
SMF - Heroic Last Word + Heroic Heartpierce - 9.6k
If someone can let me know what additional details would be useful, I would be glad to run some tests and post the results here.
Last Word + Heartpiece numbers:
Raging Blows - 6k avg
BT - 10.1k avg
HS - 14k avg
That is what I am using, Wrathful Gladiator's Cleaver and Chopper (Orc), but this is more out of necessity/taste since I just rolled fury since they introduced TG in 3.0 and the play-style became awkward to me. Lacking crit mostly atm (30.72% unbuffed, 27% hit, 26 expertise), but its a small price to a great comeback of the 1h fury.
TG - SM + Heroic Cryptmaker - 11.4k
SMF - Heroic and Normal Last Word - 9.2k
SMF - Heroic Last Word + Heroic Heartpierce - 9.6k
Out of Last Word and Heartpiece which did you put in the MH? I assume Last word since you listed it first but if thats the case it maybe pay to swap them. The proc from Last Word will be up almost constantly even in the offhand and although I'm not sure of the proc behaviour on Heartpiece you might get better results.
These are pretty interesting number in my opinion. Considering you are also below the hit cap there is still room to improve rage gen and increase dps and there are also other weapon options that may or may not yield better dps.
My personal experience has been that using a fast offhand creates smoother, more reliable rage generation. I've been using HBB main and PvP fists offhand and testing back and forth with the slow and the fast version to determine which was more desirable since they have the same stats other than weapon speed. Using 4million damage tests, the fast offhand usually came out slightly ahead in dps (1-200 points) however, the slow offhand usually started out 500-1k dps higher due to harder hitting white crits and raging blows. With the fast offhand, rage generation was more abundant (noticable by increased number of RBs- close to double) and much more predictible with less of a penalty for losing flurry, and more consistent enrage uptime. It's possible that a slow offhand could outperform the fast offhand, especially on shorter fights and with the windfury effect, but at the testing dummy, it's been if not dominantly superior, it's at least been more consistent to use the fast offhand.
TG - SM + Heroic Cryptmaker - 11.4k
SMF - Heroic and Normal Last Word - 9.2k
SMF - Heroic Last Word + Heroic Heartpierce - 9.6k
That's quite interesting, especially because you were under the hit cap. Also interested to see Heroic Heartpierce come over Normal Last Word, but maybe the 277 weapon damage + base AP > the Str Proc on LW.
I wouldn't call that test completely fair though, I mean, you have SM, which is tons of Str from the proc as well. Maybe compare it with another dual 277s?
Even after seeing this, It'd be fair to say that H Black Bruise + H Last Word would do nice amounts of damage, and the procs on both aren't all that bad.
...With the fast offhand, rage generation was more abundant (noticable by increased number of RBs- close to double) and much more predictible with less of a penalty for losing flurry, and more consistent enrage uptime...
Are you sure this is correct? I thought rage generation was normalized and was something like 6.5*weapon speed per hit for MH weapon and less for OH weapons. If so then rage generation should not improve because of the speed of your weapon.
10/21/10, 2:22 PM
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