Fury DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm - Page 61

Mjölner · 11/09/11, 12:53 PM

I've recently been experimenting a bit, and I've come across that Helm of Voracious Maw is apparently an upgrade from The Horseman's Horrific Helmet.

I was wondering exactly what would cause this, as the Horseman Helmet has a lot more base strength, and comes with a lot of hit and crit, as opposed to crit/mastery and lower strength on the Voracious Maw helmet.

Anyone got any idea why this is, or if I simply messed something up?
The only thing I can think of is Mastery gradually increasing in weight now that I've got twin Sulfuras, but I doubt it would be put above hit/crit.

EDIT- it isn't a small difference either, Voracious Maw is coming up above 400dps more than the Horrific Helm.

landsoul · 11/09/11, 2:54 PM

From the Class Q/A:

Originally Posted by Landsoul

While playing a Fury Warrior, missing Auto-Attacks when you are counting on the rage from them is unpredictable and frustrating, especially when it happens during an important timing. This random event can mean the difference between performing poorly or amazingly. Saving rage to have decent-sized bank can somewhat provide insurance against this, but sometimes it doesn't provide enough coverage when consecutive misses occur. This is especially prevalent with the slower swings of Titan's Grip.

Is it possible to allow Auto-Attack misses to generate a full or partial rage gain? To counterbalance, the Rage per speed coefficient could be lowered from 6.5 to say, 6. I'm sure most Warriors would be happy giving up some rage per swing to have a more predictable resource system.

Answer:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

One of the defining characteristics of Rage, as distinct from Energy, is its unpredictability. If you could predict with certainty what your Rage generation over the next X seconds is going to be, then the two resource types become essentially indistinguishable. That said, a dual-wielding warrior should have enough combat events occurring that the randomness is smoothed out in practice, and of course gearing for Hit and Expertise allows players to exert more control over their rage income if they want less variability, potentially at the expense of other stats.

That said, we have some changes in the works regarding Rage mechanics in Mists, including changing some core rotational abilities to actually generate Rage instead of consuming it (in addition to autoattacks). Currently, warriors need to reliably have enough Rage to perform their core rotational abilities at nearly all times, or the result can be very frustrating. However, this doesn't leave much room for Rage generation to grow without resulting in having more than a player can reasonably spend (or a return to constantly hitting Heroic Strike). This may also increase the sense of control you have over Rage generation, while simultaneously allowing us to make Rage itself more valuable and interesting as a resource.

TLDR:

We are going to get an additional track of rage generation via active abilities so that some of the RNG is smoothed out. You will have Rage Gen through Auto-Attacks as well as Rage Gen through hitting a specific ability (possibly Raging Blow or Bloodthirst)

Cheesefry · 11/14/11, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mjölner

I've recently been experimenting a bit, and I've come across that Helm of Voracious Maw is apparently an upgrade from The Horseman's Horrific Helmet.

I was wondering exactly what would cause this, as the Horseman Helmet has a lot more base strength, and comes with a lot of hit and crit, as opposed to crit/mastery and lower strength on the Voracious Maw helmet.

Anyone got any idea why this is, or if I simply messed something up?
The only thing I can think of is Mastery gradually increasing in weight now that I've got twin Sulfuras, but I doubt it would be put above hit/crit.

EDIT- it isn't a small difference either, Voracious Maw is coming up above 400dps more than the Horrific Helm.

So I put together some rough numbers.

SEP #1 - I pulled the default TG stat weights from a popular site, Mr. Robot. Converted to SEP.
SEP #2 - Used arbitrary numbers giving strength twice the weight of crit and over 3x the value of mastery.

SEP#1 - STR(1.00), Crit(0.66), Hit(0.59), Mastery(0.53), Haste(0.46)
SEP#2 - STR(1.00), Crit(0.50), Hit(0.40), Mastery(0.30), Haste(0.20)

*I feel that SEP#2 values strength too highly. Also it values crit and hit too highly in relation to mastery and haste. This is to provide a "best case scenario" for the Headless Horseman helmet.

Link to item comparison of Headless Horseman Helmet, Greathelm of the Voracious Maw and (H) Greathelm of the Voracious Maw
Items should be gemmed and reforged appropriately unless I screwed up using Wowhead's tool.

You can play around with what values you assign to each, but as long as the order of value doesn't change (STR > CRIT > HIT > MASTERY > HASTE), the Horseman's Helmet is NOT better than the Greathelm of the Voracious Maw. The further you devalue mastery the "better" the numbers come out for the Horseman's Helmet.

Based on this, the Horseman's Helmet is worse than or (in best-case) equal to the Greathelm of the Voracious Maw. You have to personally adjust your stat weights and determine the following:

Greathelm of the Voracious Maw:

+ 171 Mastery Rating

Horseman's Helmet:

+ 23 Strength
+ 84 Secondary Stats (46 Crit, 38 Hit)

I would say that if you are in mostly 378 Firelands gear, your gear should provide enough hit rating so that the SEP value of Mastery is only slightly behind hit, making the Greathelm of the Voracious Maw the obvious choice.

*I made this post awhile back elsewhere. The SEP numbers are not correct, they are just used to compare/contrast.

Mjölner · 11/14/11, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by Cheesefry

So I put together some rough numbers.

SEP #1 - I pulled the default TG stat weights from a popular site, Mr. Robot. Converted to SEP.
SEP #2 - Used arbitrary numbers giving strength twice the weight of crit and over 3x the value of mastery.

SEP#1 - STR(1.00), Crit(0.66), Hit(0.59), Mastery(0.53), Haste(0.46)
SEP#2 - STR(1.00), Crit(0.50), Hit(0.40), Mastery(0.30), Haste(0.20)

*I feel that SEP#2 values strength too highly. Also it values crit and hit too highly in relation to mastery and haste. This is to provide a "best case scenario" for the Headless Horseman helmet.

Link to item comparison of Headless Horseman Helmet, Greathelm of the Voracious Maw and (H) Greathelm of the Voracious Maw
Items should be gemmed and reforged appropriately unless I screwed up using Wowhead's tool.

You can play around with what values you assign to each, but as long as the order of value doesn't change (STR > CRIT > HIT > MASTERY > HASTE), the Horseman's Helmet is NOT better than the Greathelm of the Voracious Maw. The further you devalue mastery the "better" the numbers come out for the Horseman's Helmet.

Based on this, the Horseman's Helmet is worse than or (in best-case) equal to the Greathelm of the Voracious Maw. You have to personally adjust your stat weights and determine the following:

Greathelm of the Voracious Maw:

+ 171 Mastery Rating

Horseman's Helmet:

+ 23 Strength
+ 84 Secondary Stats (46 Crit, 38 Hit)

I would say that if you are in mostly 378 Firelands gear, your gear should provide enough hit rating so that the SEP value of Mastery is only slightly behind hit, making the Greathelm of the Voracious Maw the obvious choice.

*I made this post awhile back elsewhere. The SEP numbers are not correct, they are just used to compare/contrast.

That really does clear up quite a lot, and my mind just doesn't follow me sometimes. I am in pretty much full 378 with one or two 391's, twin Sulfuras and such.

Thank you very much, good sir, I appreciate it.

Littch · 11/16/11, 8:37 AM

quick question, whats the best way to AoE properly on 5+ targets. been waiting for landsoul to update his compendium but im reckoning thats not guna be anytime soon down the executioner rotation.

im currently using BT > WW > BT > WW ect. theres a 1 second gap between the BT and WW but the extra rage i generate i dump into cleaves. is this correct?

tekswe · 11/16/11, 12:57 PM

I think questions like that are better asked in: [Cataclysm] Warrior: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

To answer your question; Yes, that is correct. Or you can replace BT with additional cleaves through inner rage. (rage permitting)

landsoul · 11/16/11, 3:29 PM

There's no straight answer for 5+targets. The main thing is WW and HL on cooldown obviously.

When you get the procs from BT it's nice (free cleaves or slam) but I don't think a BT will beat a 3-Cleave with 3 stacks in efficiency.

Littch · 11/18/11, 11:55 AM

kk thanks landsoul

c� n · 11/20/11, 11:14 AM

Has anyone already calculated how good / bad SMF will be in comparison to TG? Because im sure SMF could be really interesting with our new 2p bonus and because of the equivalent itemlvl of the weapons.

tekswe · 11/20/11, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by c� n

Has anyone already calculated how good / bad SMF will be in camparison to TG? Because im sure SMF could be really interesting with our new 2p bonus and because of the equivalent itemlvl of the weapons.

last thing i heard it was around a 1-2% difference for progress in favour of TG (think those are collisions numbers). might be a bigger difference once TG warriors get their hands on Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps - Item - World of Warcraft, but at a first glance this tier looks a lot better for SMF than the last one much thanks to the equivalent itemlvl as you said and the crit on Hand of Morchok - Item - World of Warcraft.

also worth considering is whether death knights around the world will go unholy in 4.3 which would possibly mean SMF is the way to go for progress due to the early weapons. if i were you i would hold on to that question until the top warriors in top 20 guilds have gotten a feel for both and can give some detailed info. i'm very interested in the theoretical numbers myself.

Muspel · 11/20/11, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by c� n

Has anyone already calculated how good / bad SMF will be in camparison to TG? Because im sure SMF could be really interesting with our new 2p bonus and because of the equivalent itemlvl of the weapons.

Regardless of which one is theoretically higher (since the margin is incredibly small anyways from all the math I've seen), I'd base your choice off of your raid comp. For instance, my guild will have at least three DW frost DKs in Dragon Soul, so I'll be staying TG to avoid bloodshed over STR 1h drops.

If SMF is actually better, I may end up swapping later in the tier once there's less competition, but in the meantime, I'll do what benefits the raid the most.

Collision · 11/21/11, 12:02 PM

From everything I've seen, it will entirely depend on the procs from the 416 weapons available to SMF/TG. If the SMF proc sucks, then TG will be better, and vice versa. In entirely equal gear disregarding weapons they're so close you can basically call it even due to RNG/player error/noise, with TG getting a slight nod.

Has anyone even done any work on the proc-rates for the SMF weapon? It didn't drop for us when I killed Deathwing on the PTR unfortunately. :\ Maybe next time. If I can get my hands on one I'll beat on a target dummy for a while to see what I can find.

landsoul · 11/29/11, 4:38 AM

So... Has anyone ever revisited Avalanche? Avalanche crits will grant Deep Wounds. Your Spell Crit is higher in a raid than your Melee Crit. Landslide's 1000 AP seems kind of shrunken now compared to the rest of our AP pool. Avalanche is 5 ppm and can proc off of anything, including Deep Wounds. I've seen the proc rate is smaller on random spells like Deep Wounds or than actual strikes. Is anyone able to dig up some old post about this?

Any thoughts?

Titanshammer · 11/29/11, 6:21 AM

Landsoul with your statement on Landslide's ap being kinda shrunken.. would hurricane be a viable option for off hand enchant to go with T13 2pc? Proc'ing haste means more swings which gives more rage which can be dumped on HS, not sure if it would outperform landslide or avalanche though.

landsoul · 11/29/11, 6:41 AM

2 AP is above 0.9 SEP. 1 Haste Rating won't get that high.