Arms DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm - Page 11

Healranktwo · 01/02/11, 11:32 AM

I don't think it's so much that you want dodges so you can overpower. I think in most situations, having something dodged (like CS for example) will result in a DPS loss, it's just that the loss is more minimal for us since we can turn it into an overpower. So in that regard, there might be better stats than expertise.

I'm honestly more curious about how accurate simcraft is. Mastery is accepted as one of our better stats (albeit without any real reason except that it sounds good) right now with crit, but simcraft (and rawr for that matter) both give me very underwhelming values for mastery. The values for me in my current gear are:

str 1.0
crit 0.6
haste 0.40
mastery 0.38

According to both of those, even haste is a better stat to go for. Is anyone else getting the same results?

It makes sense in a way though. Even if our mastery has all sorts of great scaling going for it (being able to crit, procing SD), There is a .5 second ICD on how often it can proc. Perhaps at some level of mastery, we will probably be close to a "soft cap" that regardless of how much more mastery we get, we can never really bypass the ICD on the ability, and thus, mastery would not be giving us it's full value.

Anduryondon · 01/02/11, 11:39 AM

I am getting similar results, although with better gear my mastery value has overcome haste (one run it was 0,42 and haste 0,37 although these values change with multiple runs). Basically that means we should try to get every piece with crit on it, since crit is so much more worth than haste and mastery.
I wrote my thoughts on expertise cap for Arms in the faq thread.

hellord · 01/03/11, 10:02 AM

With my current gear, especially after I got DMC:H, mastery is a better stat than haste according to simcraft.
I am surprised about the low value of expertise. Not that it sound strange it's our worst stat, but the magnitude seems really large.
The difference in game is mostly that exp has a better value during execute phase and you might end up capping rage more often than the ~2% the simulation models, but we should also expect a slight change to HS according to devs, and it could bump a bit expertise and reduce haste. However I can't see how it can get better than other secondary stats unless we get up to HS cap or until they tune OP to not be so much better than anything else.

Mastery "softcap" is not probably going to happen soon, or at least is moderately preventable: you can desynch your GCD and HS so you only have collisions with swings. In that scenario haste will work against mastery since it will increase the number of collisions and thus having diminishing returns from mastery. It could lead to a lower effective value of both stats, but I assume the .5s OS cd can in fact be lower (I couldn't test properly for smaller intervals) and simulated results may be biased. I have no evidence for this, just a slightly higher % of mastery in some tests than simulations, so take it with a grain of salt.

In any case once you tune the simcraft command list, mastery gets better than haste in most setups even tho it's always not a big difference and exp is far worse, so not many choices.

remix1 · 01/03/11, 10:36 AM

With SimCraft, Arms stat values are largely dependent on the rotation input. After tweaking the default priorities quite a bit to find the highest DPS output with my gear thus far, I've found that expertise actually fluxuates right around mastery - sometimes slightly higher, sometimes slightly lower, and always better than haste. Given that these simulations are in a "perfect world" tank and spank scenario with no user error, it's quite feasible expertise is being undervalued. In either event, it appears crit is hands-down the best secondary stat, so ideally you want to grab pieces with crit/X and reforge X if necessary.

Deathwing · 01/03/11, 10:53 AM

Would you guys mind posting your tunings to the simcraft rotation? Quite curious if it matches what I found for arms.

Healranktwo · 01/03/11, 1:01 PM

I would like to see them too. I have done some extensive changes to my gear (reforging mastery for haste) and plan to see how it works out. I'm curious too how much better mastery was in your setup than haste. If they are close enough then it may simply come down to preferences.

hellord · 01/03/11, 2:24 PM

I was just doing some tests on the dummies and it seems you effectively *can* use Inner Rage during deadly calm, but only if you triggered DC when over 75 rage. However triggering DC at such high treshold yields a net dps loss.

I use

actions=flask,type=titanic_strength
actions+=/food,type=beer_basted_crocolisk
actions+=/stance,choose=battle,if=!in_combat
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/golemblood_potion,if=!in_combat|buff.bloodlust.react
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/deadly_calm,if=rage<20
actions+=/sweeping_strikes,if=target.adds>0
actions+=/berserker_rage
actions+=/bladestorm,if=target.adds>0&!buff.deadly_calm.up&!buff.sweeping_strikes.up
actions+=/cleave,if=target.adds>0
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=target.adds=0&(rage>65|buff.deadly_calm.up|buff.incite.up|buff.battle_trance.up)
actions+=/overpower,if=buff.taste_for_blood.remains<1.5
actions+=/rend,if=!ticking
actions+=/colossus_smash,if=!buff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/mortal_strike
actions+=/overpower,if=!buff.lambs_to_the_slaughter.up&rage>35&target.health_pct<20
actions+=/execute
actions+=/overpower
actions+=/slam,if=cooldown.mortal_strike.remains>=1.5
actions+=/battle_shout,if=rage<25

Whenever I tried some different tuning that brought haste or exp over mastery, reforging and going for those stats decreased the total dps output and brought mastery back up and finetuning didn't change much.
I also saw a lot of fluctuations between haste and mastery values where each other ranged from .3 to .4 str and I'm going for mastery only cause I'm seeing it higher more often.

remix1 · 01/03/11, 3:44 PM

Here's mine, for single-target only. I could probably tweak it a bit further when I have more time but for now it's netting about 50 more dps than the list above in my current gear and significantly raises the value of expertise. Probably could be condensed a bit too but not too familiar with the conditional codes. Doesn't have racials either. One of the big things I noticed when playing around with it last week was that lower wait time generally meant more dps, so you probably want to be using anything you can for a gcd instead of waiting for rage because of mastery procs, deep wounds, and such.

actions=flask,type=titanic_strength
actions+=/food,type=beer_basted_crocolisk
actions+=/stance,choose=battle,if=!in_combat
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/golemblood_potion,if=!in_combat|buff.bloodlust.react
actions+=/berserker_rage
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=buff.deadly_calm.up
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=buff.battle_trance.up&target.health_pct>20
actions+=/rend,if=!ticking
actions+=/overpower,if=buff.taste_for_blood.remains<1.5
actions+=/deadly_calm,if=rage<30
actions+=/colossus_smash,if=!buff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/colossus_smash,if=buff.colossus_smash.remains<1
actions+=/mortal_strike
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=buff.incite.up
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=target.health_pct>20&rage>=60
actions+=/execute,if=buff.deadly_calm.up
actions+=/execute,if=buff.battle_trance.up
actions+=/execute,if=rage>=30
actions+=/overpower
actions+=/execute
actions+=/slam,if=cooldown.mortal_strike.remains>1.5
actions+=/battle_shout,if=rage<=30

Anduryondon · 01/03/11, 4:28 PM

Does someone know how to activate Bladestorm with casting Inner Rage and Berserker Stance when you're above 75 rage in SimCraft? 150% weapon damage + 15% IR + 5% Berserker Stance could be a dps increase, even in single target fights.

Pielo · 01/05/11, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

Does someone know how to activate Bladestorm with casting Inner Rage and Berserker Stance when you're above 75 rage in SimCraft? 150% weapon damage + 15% IR + 5% Berserker Stance could be a dps increase, even in single target fights.

Well if you want to do this, you have to make sure your specced into 2 points to keep the rage. Otherwise your switching stances and dumping your rage to 25 and restarting.

But assuming your specced into it, I would assume it would go along the lines of

actions+=/stance,choose=berserkser,if=rage>=75&in_combat
actions+=/inner_rage,if=bladestorm.up
actions+=/bladestorm

Anduryondon · 01/06/11, 11:55 AM

Unfortunately neither bladestorm.up nor buff.bladestorm.up did work, I assume bladestorm is not a buff, but I will do some research on this.
On another topic, huge Arms buff incoming:

Lambs to the Slaughter now stacks up to 3 times, lasts 15 seconds and affects Slam - Your Mortal Strike causes the Slaughter effect, which increases the damage of Execute, Overpower, Slam and Mortal Strike by 10%. Lasts 15 sec. Stacks up to 1/2/3 times.

This will probably increase the value of expertise, as well rewarding smart use of slam and in addition a huge buff for execute phases.

Deathwing · 01/06/11, 12:03 PM

Try "cooldown.bladestorm.remains<MAX&cooldown.bladestorm.remains>MAX-10" It's a slapdash way to do it, but you basically test to see if bladestorm is up based on the remaining time on the cooldown.

Also, I would say that decreases the value of expertise even more. Current Lambs means if your MS is dodged, you don't get the buff for the ensuing OP. Now, you just have to hit MS once every 15s and every OP, MS, Slam, and Execute will have the buff.

Aedilhild · 01/06/11, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

This will probably increase the value of expertise, as well rewarding smart use of slam and in addition a huge buff for execute phases.

Returning to Hellorco's sketch, applying a 30% increase to every Overpower sweetens the absolute (if not the relative) DPR benefit from replacing a Slam after a dodged melee swing. Yanking Overpower from Lambs, while obviously introducing its own problems, would result in a lower DPR gain and plain DPS loss through dodge replacement, thus a likely increase in Expertise's value.

Beyond the raw boost to Execute, a 15-second buff clarifies the current ≤20 rotation muddle. Instead of rationing rage between Mortal Strike and Execute, players only need keep Slaughter up after, say, six Executes and a pair of Overpowers.

Finally, a 13.5-second minimum ramp-up time means that in any competitive match, Slaughter can be dispelled long before it reaches three stacks. That's a nice firewall between PvP and PvE.

Crazyhoof · 01/06/11, 2:58 PM

Sorry for the potentially newbish question, but in looking at the recommended specs both here and on other guides, most everyone puts 2 points in Executioner. However, based on everything I've read haste has very little value for us as a DPS boost. I'm just trying to understand the rational for that choice. It would seem that Rude Interruption might be a better overall DPS boost, admittedly situational, but so far it seems like many bosses in Cata have opportunities for interrupts. Am I missing something?

hellord · 01/06/11, 3:02 PM

The change to Ltts is very nice since it is a plain buff to Slam and MS damage. As Aedilhild said it will also buff every op coming from a dodged attack and Deathwing's already underlined that it will decrease the value of expertise on MS. However exp will also have a drop on HS, since it's going to be nerfed rather hard (20% base and removed from War academy) while it will gain some on Exe phase. We can expect to see Slam propping up to 8-9%sh in the teoretical best rotation (ie you will never have HS more efficient than Slam).

As an overall change MS+Slam fares around 20-22%sh of our DPS, Hs is in the range of 12-15%sh, so we lose around 3% DPS on HS with a net gain of about 3%sh dps supposing Slam will effectively have a much higher usage which I'm not so sure. In fact not using Slam at all has always been a dps loss, but how many more opportunities we gain? The relative value of Slam vs MS and OP is the same, Exe already replaced it with or w/o Ltts, so we are left with the trade offs "rage on HS with incite/bTrance" vs "rage on Slam", since you never replace a normal Slam for a normal HS. On top of this IR should get a slight benefit, but shouldn't be worth using it in any case but for btrance procs.

Haste will probably drop under expertise now because HS dpr is going to be really much less, but on another side even OP efficiency is devalued. The absolute value of expertise will probably be very similar to patch 4.0.3, it's haste that's affected the most.

For the Juggernaut change I have some doubts. From a certain pov I'm happy I can use charge more often and we have both our gap closers (now charge and heroic leap) available in every stance. From another pov the loss of intercept can be detrimental to a point where we can effectively close gaps only once a minute when you can chain HL and charge.

Considering all the changes, I'm not sure we will see a noticeable increase in our potential pve dps. We now have a 14s ramp up that hopefully shouldn't drop that often since the buff isn't target-based. We probably will need to swap out of haste gear for expertise one, but the latter will mostly have the actual haste value, while the former will have a considerably lower value and is nigh impossible to avoid it.