Arms DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm - Page 40

landsoul · 01/30/12, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Foldz

Are there any solid SEP numbers out there at this point? Maybe Landsoul or someone else can chime in and give people a general idea of how the SEP work for haste/mastery in the bigger scope. This would make a lot of itemization choices easier for people.

I'll see what I can do, no promises on time, though. Best bet is to try SimCraft at this point. There's not really any breakpoints in haste or mastery AFAIK.

STR>Crit>>Mastery>>>Haste, I don't know by how much. I remember in WotLK Haste was like less than .2, maybe it's about .2 now.

Also, I know that with 10% Haste and 3.6 Speed Weapon, Slam will cost 20.08 Rage in total. 21.60 Rage with Heroism. (Quote napkin math and averages) So it's pretty fair to equate the cost of HS@20 and Slam if that wasn't already stated.

Dragaunus · 02/01/12, 2:30 AM

it is better for ALL Single-Target Fights (like the Morchok/Ultraxion/Blackhorn) use (397)Crache + (390)EoU?
And leave the R-Skull for fights that need Burst dmg(including Warlord Black Phase).
Rotting Skull seems a nice trinket ... but in the long term it seems less than LFR EoU.

in this case ... Whereas the combination of Creche+EoU will always be better, even being LFR or not, spend 1650 Valor Point would be the last option?

junialum · 02/01/12, 5:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bruisefest

Do not do this. While not a huge portion of a fight is done in the last 25%, frequently (at least with the majority of Heroic Bosses) the last 20-25% blocks are the most important. Morchok = enrage. Yor'sahj = get potentially 1 less ooze pack. Zon'zozz = Hits hard as hell and likely soaking the black phase. Ultraxion = Tons of raid damage. Gunship = Blackthorn hits hard as hell.

To put things in perspective
would you prefer 25% more haste in the sub 20% phase (requiring 5GCDs to stack) - Increased swing speed = more rage.

Or
10% less HS crit chance with 66% less chance to get the next HS a guaranteed hit for the entirety of the fight?

Kaljurei · 02/01/12, 7:29 AM

Originally Posted by Dragaunus

it is better for ALL Single-Target Fights (like the Morchok/Ultraxion/Blackhorn) use (397)Crache + (390)EoU?
And leave the R-Skull for fights that need Burst dmg(including Warlord Black Phase).
Rotting Skull seems a nice trinket ... but in the long term it seems less than LFR EoU.

in this case ... Whereas the combination of Creche+EoU will always be better, even being LFR or not, spend 1650 Valor Point would be the last option?

According to my limited knowledge, Rotting Skull is by far the best trinket that you should be using on Hagara Heroic. The duration of the Str buff lasts exactly as long as Feedback does, and the CD almost always perfectly matches with every Feedback phase. Do not forget, only boss DPS matters, hence burst is much more important here than consistent DPS, and hence Creche will not win out over Rotting Skull. EoU is still much better than both of them because it provides too much Str that takes very little time to stack to full.

RS is also probably a good trinket for Yor'sahj, you can basically use it for every two add phases. If you are having problems in your raid setup considering AOE DPS, it is probably a good trinket to use with your Bladestorm, and the CD is almost equal as well, although you don't really use BS on CD on that fight unless you have consecutive phases with Black Ooze and you're killing Green or Yellow. I haven't tested it however, just speaking theoretically. Just giving people reasons to consider it.

I haven't had many attempts on Zon'ozz HC, so I'm probably not going to comment on that. However, it could be of great potential use when you go back on the boss and use SS to finish the Claw Tentacle.

Bruisefest · 02/01/12, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by junialum

To put things in perspective
would you prefer 25% more haste in the sub 20% phase (requiring 5GCDs to stack) - Increased swing speed = more rage.

Or
10% less HS crit chance with 66% less chance to get the next HS a guaranteed hit for the entirety of the fight?

Considering every warrior I've ever armoried aside from you uses executioner, I'd say it's pretty cut and dry decision. And I don't mean that to sound snarky, I'm just trying to avoid someone thinking that not taking executioner is the norm.

Kaljurei · 02/02/12, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Bruisefest

Considering every warrior I've ever armoried aside from you uses executioner, I'd say it's pretty cut and dry decision. And I don't mean that to sound snarky, I'm just trying to avoid someone thinking that not taking executioner is the norm.

Just because the Majority does something, doesn't mean it's right. Please do not answer posts if you cannot back yourself up with logical reasoning.

This argument can be almost completely negated by simply having 2 Arms specs. Any silly reasons such as "I need a Prot/PvP-Arms/PvP-Fury spec" or "I don't have gold to respec/reforge/reglyph all the time" are completely invalid, because you do not consider such factors when you talk about min-maxing DPS.

In the case of maximizing single target DPS when you are specced into B&T, the problem can be resolved by considering the fight where you are speccing into B&T.

->On Yor'sahj the amount of raid damage you take is negligible, and apart from using Inner Rage right after a Deadly Calm to spam a few Heroic Strikes, you're not going to be using HS that much.

On the other hand, having a few Executioner stacks when jumping from an Ooze/Slime to the Boss can increase DPS done on the boss a lot more than Incite 3/3 can. This is mostly because of the fact that Executioner provides a direct buff to Rage Generation, whereas Incite simply adds a chance to provide extra DPS, which comparatively comes out worse than using Executioner.

->On Spine, I have not done this boss on Heroic yet so I cannot comment exactly, but I think the situation is similar to Yor'sahj again. You can get upto 5 Executioner Stacks on the Amalgamation and then jump on the Burning Tendon before you start DPSing it, by using Heroic Leap to jump away from the Amalgamation just before it explodes and then charging back to the Tendon.

Just a question here? Why would you even spend points on B&T here? AOE? Why would you ever want to AOE on Spine, single targeting the Corrupted Bloods is much more preferable considering the damage the explosion does when they die. Even if you're getting the Amalgamation down to 10% and then killing the Bloods, it's enough just to use Bladestorm, and people will take quite a bit of damage from 9 Bloods going down almost simultaneously.

->On Madness, Again I haven't done this fight but I've seen Landsoul's vid and he has specced into B&T and Executioner here. While I do not say follow what he does blindly, the reasoning is clear.

Executioner 5 stacks on Mutated Corruption, and then jumping back to the Limb/Arm/Wing Tentacle leads to more DPS. Also you have 5 Execute phases on the boss itself which is again, more DPS and more chances to get the Executioner buff. However, considering the raid damage on this fight and the number of opportunities to use Heroic Strike, I cannot be certain on the talent choice selection of Executioner>Incite. My gut feeling is that Executioner is better because it's a direct buff to damage done whereas Incite is not, since its RNG, and you have several places where you can get 5 stacks of Executioner to maximize damage done.

Simply put, Executioner actually directly increases Rage generation leading to more DPS, whereas Incite only gives you a chance to do more DPS.

tjl1982 · 02/02/12, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by junialum

To put things in perspective
would you prefer 25% more haste in the sub 20% phase (requiring 5GCDs to stack) - Increased swing speed = more rage.

Or
10% less HS crit chance with 66% less chance to get the next HS a guaranteed hit for the entirety of the fight?

If you truly want to put things in perspective, look at the benefits of 25% more haste during your execution phase. You gain 25% more haste, resulting in more melee swings, opportunity strikes, rage and Gurthalak procs if applicable. Now, translate the extra rage generation into 1/3 specced incite HS, as it remains our rage dump, to look at the benefit of Executioner. It's not just the haste gain, but how it plays into the whole execution phase.

Now, compare the above benefits vs the gain of 2 more points into incite.

Bruisefest · 02/02/12, 2:03 PM

Yea, I definitely should've spent the time posting an extensively long response to a statement that flew in the face of research that took place a while ago on the thread.

The original question was whether for progression someone should go 3/3 or 1/3, 2/2. The suggestion was made to go 3/3 and 2/2 and drop Executioner. My response was merely to debunk that dropping Executioner was worth it. Regarding everyone doing it not being a good reason, considering many top end warriors get paid to play the game, they do not do something for extended periods of time accidentally. If they ALL do it, it's not because there hasn't been some unique snowflake.

Back to thread. Is there an optimal point at which applying rend immediately is worth it or is it always worth it? I.E. Heroic Hagara has a feedback window of 15 seconds or when you're on frost phase for her. In both these situations is it always worth rending the target as soon as you reach it?

Arqentum · 02/02/12, 5:21 PM

Is it worth spamming Whirlwind and Thunder Clap on Yor'sahj Heroic? (wielding a Gurthalak 403)
Or just Thunder Clap to reapply rend?

If spamming WW/TC is optimal - using CS is nonsense?

Muspel · 02/02/12, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Arqentum

Is it worth spamming Whirlwind and Thunder Clap on Yor'sahj Heroic? (wielding a Gurthalak 403)
Or just Thunder Clap to reapply rend?

If spamming WW/TC is optimal - using CS is nonsense?

You should absolutely use TC on cooldown, since it forces a rend tick on each target when it refreshes the DoT. WW also appears to be a DPS gain as long as there's a fair number of adds up, from some basic tests I ran during progression.

I was never sure about whether to use CS, however. Or what the proper rotation for AoEing during the execute phase was.

Kaljurei · 02/03/12, 4:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bruisefest

Yea, I definitely should've spent the time posting an extensively long response to a statement that flew in the face of research that took place a while ago on the thread.

The original question was whether for progression someone should go 3/3 or 1/3, 2/2. The suggestion was made to go 3/3 and 2/2 and drop Executioner. My response was merely to debunk that dropping Executioner was worth it. Regarding everyone doing it not being a good reason, considering many top end warriors get paid to play the game, they do not do something for extended periods of time accidentally. If they ALL do it, it's not because there hasn't been some unique snowflake.

Back to thread. Is there an optimal point at which applying rend immediately is worth it or is it always worth it? I.E. Heroic Hagara has a feedback window of 15 seconds or when you're on frost phase for her. In both these situations is it always worth rending the target as soon as you reach it?

The majority of educated Americans use Aspirin and Valium for ailments for which these medicines offer no relief whatsoever and are sometimes the wrong medicine to take. Does that mean they are right? Don't even think of using Placebos to refute this argument.

As for applying Rend on Hagara, absolutely. Overpower is an almost guaranteed Crit and you're going to be doing atleast 3 OPs in the Feedback duration, so why not? As for other situations, it would depend on whether you already have a Taste for Blood proc available and the HP of the target is too low to justify Rending again.

Is it worth spamming Whirlwind and Thunder Clap on Yor'sahj Heroic? (wielding a Gurthalak 403)
Or just Thunder Clap to reapply rend?

If spamming WW/TC is optimal - using CS is nonsense?

Thunder Clap always, for the reasons Muspel just described. WW is optional, I use it maybe 2-3 times for every black phase, as they're mostly down by the time. Since it hits all targets it is probably a good idea since it can proc Gur'thalak.

The focus of the DPS on Yor'sahj is how to efficiently do maximum single target DPS on Yor'sahj while killing the Forgotten Ones quickly. Which means after you're done with Bladestorm, you should continue your single target rotation, just replace Slam with Thunderclap. When you stance dance to Battle Stance for Overpower, use Thunderclap and then back to Mortal Strike.

AmPriS · 02/05/12, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kurathikai

Check out the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread.
I also have a guide to Arms Warrior dps on my blog, if you care to check that out.

The macros in your guides are no good.

#showtooltip Mortal Strike
/cast berserker stance
/cast Mortal Strike

Mortal Strike will go off in Battle Stance.

dacoshild · 02/06/12, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by AmPriS

The macros in your guides are no good.

#showtooltip Mortal Strike
/cast berserker stance
/cast Mortal Strike

Mortal Strike will go off in Battle Stance.

I also thought this before, but check combat log. Mortal strike is really casted after berserker stance is on.

Kurathikai · 02/06/12, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by AmPriS

The macros in your guides are no good.

#showtooltip Mortal Strike
/cast berserker stance
/cast Mortal Strike

Mortal Strike will go off in Battle Stance.

That depends entirely on when you use the button.
Let's say you are in Battle Stance because you just used Overpower, if you know that you'll be hitting MS, Slam, or CS next and you, like I do, spam that button, you will switch to berserker stance during the global cooldown, and be in berserker by the time you are ready to use the MS button. All these macros require double-tapping, but that's not really a problem when spamming.
Updated the post to reflect this.

Bruisefest · 02/06/12, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kaljurei

The majority of educated Americans use Aspirin and Valium for ailments for which these medicines offer no relief whatsoever and are sometimes the wrong medicine to take. Does that mean they are right? Don't even think of using Placebos to refute this argument.

As for applying Rend on Hagara, absolutely. Overpower is an almost guaranteed Crit and you're going to be doing atleast 3 OPs in the Feedback duration, so why not? As for other situations, it would depend on whether you already have a Taste for Blood proc available and the HP of the target is too low to justify Rending again.

The first argument would hold true if the majority of educated American's were using said items based on the recommendation of a world class Doctor to do so. What I mean is since in this case the Landsoul's of the world are the "doctor" equivalent of class mechanics, and they spend extraneous amounts of timing checking numbers for optimal, accepting their recommendations and what they do themselves 99/100 will be a correct assumption (provided you are aware of what content they're attempting with the spec).

I was more curious as to the timing of the rend, not the if. I.E. Immediately apply vs waiting till post first CS rotation to apply if you have a TFB up.

Also, was there ever a definitive on the use of Overpower vs Slam during recklessness? I found some kinda half finished numbers a page or two back.