Arms DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm - Page 41

Necronom · 02/06/12, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ran Newman

The data on the avearge streangth of the abilities is very easy to gain via simulcraft (even if the rotation is not perfect, the damage done by the abilties is), so I realy don't see any reason to make this disccusion about "how hard the abilties hit". The only issue is to determine slam actual RPE by subtracting the RPS delay and white damage delay.
As I said, I have done some very rough math to show that slam is better DPR (and simulcraft also gives better results when changing it to slam>hs during IR), but some poeple before have mentioned HS as better DPR (and you can see some of the top arms warriors droping slam out of the rotation during IR) and I was wondering if they can share their results.

Comparing HS to slam, it is correct that on a one-to-one basis slam offers better DPR due to dealing higher average damage and equivalent rage cost to HS while IR is active (when figuring in additional rage cost on slam due to white swing delay).

However you cannot compare these two on a one to one basis in any practical sense. One has to consider the secondary effects of melee swings, mastery procs, weapon procs, other abillities on the GCD, and the time interval given in order to consider a true DPR. In a 2 second time slice based on slam cast+GCD, you can get 2 heroic strikes, ~70% of a mastery swing, ~5.4% of a gurth proc, and at least 1 GCD abillity (heroic throw, adding rage free damage or battle shout, negating one HS cost for example) without delaying white swings or clipping MS/TfB. If you slam, you get 1 slam, plus ~35% of a mastery proc, plus <2.5% of a gurth proc, minus ~14%-15% of a white swing. Slam is good, but its probably not double the opportunities for mastery and gurthalak procs, and a regular GCD abillity, and no delay of white swing good. The extent of which is better is going to vary heavily on fight mechanics (i.e incoming rage).

I don't think we should be striving to replace every slam with HS at the expense of rage starvation, but I do think that given t13 raid mechanics and gear, we should probably be using it more than past tiers and possibly revisit rotations/priorities.

Kaljurei · 02/07/12, 7:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bruisefest

The first argument would hold true if the majority of educated American's were using said items based on the recommendation of a world class Doctor to do so. What I mean is since in this case the Landsoul's of the world are the "doctor" equivalent of class mechanics, and they spend extraneous amounts of timing checking numbers for optimal, accepting their recommendations and what they do themselves 99/100 will be a correct assumption (provided you are aware of what content they're attempting with the spec).

No matter what they think, doing something blindly that someone believes to be right without considering why they do it is what I am trying to discourage. That's all.

Originally Posted by Bruisefest

I was more curious as to the timing of the rend, not the if. I.E. Immediately apply vs waiting till post first CS rotation to apply if you have a TFB up.

Also, was there ever a definitive on the use of Overpower vs Slam during recklessness? I found some kinda half finished numbers a page or two back.

If you have a current TFB Proc, it's better to use Mortal Strike, CS/Overpower, and then Rend and continue. Again this all depends on whether the target has enough HP to justify using Rend at all, as in if the target is not going to be alive for more than 5 seconds after you reach it, you might as well use Slam instead of Overpower.

I think there was some discussion that stated that Slam was better than Overpower due to the extra Crit rate provided which automatically made Slam a better use of the GCD than Overpower, as it has a higher base damage coefficient. Again however, this is very much dependent on your Rage, if you're not going to be have enough Rage after 2x Slams to use Mortal Strike, then you might as well replace a Slam with an Overpower.

Muspel · 02/07/12, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Necronom

heroic throw, adding rage free damage

Heroic Throw resets your swing timer, which means you lose rage.

Glory · 02/10/12, 5:26 AM

Originally Posted by Muspel

Heroic Throw resets your swing timer, which means you lose rage.

which means you need to time it.

Muspel · 02/10/12, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by Glory

which means you need to time it.

The odds that Heroic Throw will line up with when you would have otherwise used a slam, the end of the last GCD, and right after a melee swing aren't great. I'm certain it'll occur a couple of times per fight, but it's so much trouble that I'd rather save it for times when I may be required to leave melee range (although, to be fair, that may not be needed on encounters like Ultraxion).

landsoul · 02/12/12, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by Glory

which means you need to time it.

Heroic Throw forces a full Melee Swing Time, it doesn't reset it.

Bruisefest · 02/13/12, 1:50 PM

Wanting to double back and address a question in light of fight mechanics.

[Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps] vs [Experimental Specimen Slicer]. Now, there's no arguing the power of the proc (usually 7-10% of my damage as arms), however in most heroic fights is it actually better than the raw damage difference with Experimental Specimen Slicer?
Heroic Morchok I can see where it would be since the proc could do more damage since the boss doesn't move in and out of range much.
Heroic Yor'sahj potentially, though the fact that you're not gaining as much from sweeping strikes and your abilities aren't hitting as hard with the incoming damage (less powerful HS's since you can HS more frequently).
Heroic Zon'zozz I'd wager no, because if you have to do flail, etc, like myself you have to ping pong and sometimes the spawn gets range or takes a second to find a new target. If you just park Zon'zozz then you're not getting the benefit of extra damage in sweeping strikes.
Heroic Hagara would seem to favor axe as well. B/C the tentacle would be nearly useless in the lightning, might be good in the ice, but wouldn't get near the benefit as more raw damage would in Impact.
Heroic Spine, with short tendon uptime, it seems like you'd want to most burst possible which would lean towards the axe vs the sword.

Was just curious if this actually holds water. While the sword might have higher output (as older posts seem to indicated), does that actually matter mechanically?

Deus_Phasmatis · 02/13/12, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Also, I know that with 10% Haste and 3.6 Speed Weapon, Slam will cost 20.08 Rage in total. 21.60 Rage with Heroism. (Quote napkin math and averages) So it's pretty fair to equate the cost of HS@20 and Slam if that wasn't already stated.

The cast time on Slam scales with Haste now, so the rage lost due to delayed auto-attack is constant across haste values.

Originally Posted by Necronom

Comparing HS to slam, it is correct that on a one-to-one basis slam offers better DPR due to dealing higher average damage and equivalent rage cost to HS while IR is active (when figuring in additional rage cost on slam due to white swing delay).

However you cannot compare these two on a one to one basis in any practical sense. One has to consider the secondary effects of melee swings, mastery procs, weapon procs, other abillities on the GCD, and the time interval given in order to consider a true DPR. In a 2 second time slice based on slam cast+GCD, you can get 2 heroic strikes, ~70% of a mastery swing, ~5.4% of a gurth proc, and at least 1 GCD abillity (heroic throw, adding rage free damage or battle shout, negating one HS cost for example) without delaying white swings or clipping MS/TfB. If you slam, you get 1 slam, plus ~35% of a mastery proc, plus <2.5% of a gurth proc, minus ~14%-15% of a white swing. Slam is good, but its probably not double the opportunities for mastery and gurthalak procs, and a regular GCD abillity, and no delay of white swing good. The extent of which is better is going to vary heavily on fight mechanics (i.e incoming rage).

I don't think we should be striving to replace every slam with HS at the expense of rage starvation, but I do think that given t13 raid mechanics and gear, we should probably be using it more than past tiers and possibly revisit rotations/priorities.

Comparing one Slam to two Heroic Strikes is bad math. In the same time-frame as your two Heroic Strikes, I could have one Slam and two Heroic Strikes, which is clearly even better. Additionally, the GCD and the cast start at the same time, so I don't know why you use a 2 second time-slice.

The question is not "is it better to have two Heroic Strikes or one Slam" but "Given an otherwise free GCD, with Inner Rage active and the T13 2-piece, is it better to spend ~20 rage on a Slam or a single Heroic Strike (which is all you can afford with the rage you save from not using Slam)." The second Heroic Strike has to have its rage come from somewhere else anyways; if you insist on always using two Heroic Strikes as the comparison, then you need to compare it to one Slam and one Heroic Strike.

Burchoid · 02/15/12, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bruisefest

Wanting to double back and address a question in light of fight mechanics.

[Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps] vs [Experimental Specimen Slicer]. Now, there's no arguing the power of the proc (usually 7-10% of my damage as arms), however in most heroic fights is it actually better than the raw damage difference with Experimental Specimen Slicer?
Heroic Morchok I can see where it would be since the proc could do more damage since the boss doesn't move in and out of range much.
Heroic Yor'sahj potentially, though the fact that you're not gaining as much from sweeping strikes and your abilities aren't hitting as hard with the incoming damage (less powerful HS's since you can HS more frequently).
Heroic Zon'zozz I'd wager no, because if you have to do flail, etc, like myself you have to ping pong and sometimes the spawn gets range or takes a second to find a new target. If you just park Zon'zozz then you're not getting the benefit of extra damage in sweeping strikes.
Heroic Hagara would seem to favor axe as well. B/C the tentacle would be nearly useless in the lightning, might be good in the ice, but wouldn't get near the benefit as more raw damage would in Impact.
Heroic Spine, with short tendon uptime, it seems like you'd want to most burst possible which would lean towards the axe vs the sword.

Was just curious if this actually holds water. While the sword might have higher output (as older posts seem to indicated), does that actually matter mechanically?

It seems like you are on the right track... 403 Gurth will usually beat out 410 slicer on most fights. If you need precise burst, like on H Spine or Hagara, the slicer would be better. Although, I still switch to fury for Spine because fury still has better burst than arms.

Your biggest 2 questions in regards to deciding which weapon to use on each encounter are:

Do I need to burst? if yes, use Silcer, if no, use Gurth.
Will my tentacle procs be effective? If yes, use Gurth, if no, use slicer.

Bruisefest · 02/15/12, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Burchoid

It seems like you are on the right track... 403 Gurth will usually beat out 410 slicer on most fights. If you need precise burst, like on H Spine or Hagara, the slicer would be better. Although, I still switch to fury for Spine because fury still has better burst than arms.

Your biggest 2 questions in regards to deciding which weapon to use on each encounter are:

Do I need to burst? if yes, use Silcer, if no, use Gurth.
Will my tentacle procs be effective? If yes, use Gurth, if no, use slicer.

Translation: Pote needs to pick up and gem another set of Backbreaker Spaulders (my only reforge between the two weapons).

Have you done any comparative parsing on the two? I'm going to run Heroic Slicer this week and then hopefully try to extract some numbers to see if the stat + damage gain from slicer will outpace the proc, and if so on which fights.

Burchoid · 02/17/12, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bruisefest

Translation: Pote needs to pick up and gem another set of Backbreaker Spaulders (my only reforge between the two weapons).

Have you done any comparative parsing on the two? I'm going to run Heroic Slicer this week and then hopefully try to extract some numbers to see if the stat + damage gain from slicer will outpace the proc, and if so on which fights.

Not personally to be honest, no. I would be very interested to see your parses on a fight like ultrax and maybe warmaster.

It can be very RNGish, but I've had gurth procs make up nearly 15% of my total damage on some fights, especially aoe fights. I can't see 410 slicer compensating for that 15%.

Bruisefest · 02/17/12, 4:05 PM

Needless to say the numbers were inconclusive. Also, sad to say that I'm tanking (it's 10 m) on Ultra and Warmaster.

However, I am baffled on how you are able to push the tentacle to 15% of your damage done. It's nearly and consistently 7-9% of mine.

I guess overall, it was mixed. I didn't feel the 2% crit, 2 mastery or 70ish strength very much. Zon'zozz felt smoother, Yor'sahj is hard to say because the GF started uploading files mid pull and I went to like 3-4fps), and Hagara...we kill but it's not noteworthy to try and extrapolate from.

1 week to the next week initial feeling is that it's roughly a wash in damage. I plan on making another week run at it, so we'll see how that goes, but all the stats and even the higher dps on the weapon didn't seem to pan out. Also, I'll try to be a bit more consistent in my rotation as well. Wed night I was away from brain.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Bruisefest · 02/23/12, 2:52 PM

[Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps] vs [Experimental Specimen Slicer]

So after 2 weeks of trying out the Slicer over the sword (no gear increases in the 2 weeks) I can give a fairly decent comparison on Zon'zozz and Yor'sahj.

Sword
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Axe
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

It's kind of what one would anticipate. Based on the whim of the sword and it's procs I never really seemed to hit the same max end on Yor'sahj (personal best is 50.3 with sword, vs 47.2 and 48.8 with axe), I was more consistent. Likewise, same story for Zon'zozz. I didn't reach my personal best of 57.9, but I did post 57.2 and 57.7 in back to back weeks after seeing 56 and 54 the two sword weeks prior to that. Also, I did notice a difference in my average upper end crit (via logs) with the Slicer than with the sword. Perhaps on Zon'zozz at the end of the fight this better offsets the loss of tentacle dps than in a fight where you don't have such an occurence.

End of the day this isn't a simple answer yes / no answer and it depends what you're going for. The numbers confirm the common convention that the two are roughly similar and that it varies by roll / effectiveness in the fight. Personally, I'd rather the consistency I got with the axe, vs the dice roll of the sword. Also, as an Orc with a ratial benefit of 3 more expertise with the Slicer, this might skew my numbers to making it closer.

Again this is just my personal experience and maybe I'm extrapolating something that isn't there, but I thought it was worth sharing.

Edit: Pote - Epeen Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
Everything prior to 2/16 was Gurthalak. 2/16 and 2/23 was Slicer.

seedopeedo · 03/12/12, 7:27 PM

So I recently switched to playing my warrior and am trying out arms. I'm assuming that Colossus Smash is on top of the priority list because of the debuff.

My question is if the debuff is up already, do you colossus smash asap anyways if its up, or do you wait for the debuff to fall off before reapplying it?

marklartank · 03/12/12, 7:30 PM

the damage done by CS is very, very low - much lower than your other attacks. the only reason for using CS is the amazing debuff it puts up. therefore, you do not want to use CS if the debuff is already up.