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Old 01/05/11, 10:24 AM   #136
Deathwing
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Booi View Post
Mastery brings your critical block up twice as fast as it does pre unhittable, because the block portion is also converted to critical block. So stepping from a a 70% melee to a 40% melee is a 42.8% damage reduction
Careful there, only the overflow block from Shield Block is converted to crit block, not all overflow block.

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Old 01/05/11, 10:49 AM   #137
Shyrian
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Azuremyst
Originally Posted by Vistana View Post
Using my own stats:
Without buffs (9.19% dodge/16.05% parry/ 51.41% block = 76.65% total), I get 25% Block Chance and 31% Critical Block Chance.
With my Throngus' Finger proc up (now 16.72% dodge, and base parry/block), I get the same 25% Block Chance and 39% Critical Block Chance.
With my Heroic Porcelain Crab proc up (same dodge/parry as before, but now 65.72% block chance), I get the same 25% Block Chance and now a whopping 45% Critical Block Chance.

So the Critical Block Chance is obviously increasing as you get more and more avoidance through procs and gear, but the tooltip for Shield Block doesn't make any sense with this evidence.
Based on your stats, you're also getting a free 25% in that calculation.

76.65% + 5% miss + 25% shield block + the 25% mystery bonus = 131
84.18 + 5% + 25% SB + 25% mystery bonus = 139
90.96 + 5 + 25% SB + 25% mystery bonus = 145

And really interesting is that with your mastery when you proc the crab and then bust shield block and add in hold the line, your block is ~90% and your crit block is ~85%. If both procs and HTL were up, your crit block would be higher than your block.

Last edited by Shyrian : 01/05/11 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Additional idea

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Old 01/05/11, 12:21 PM   #138
Garganchewin
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Warrior
 
Bloodhoof
So it looks like Shield Block increases Block Chance AND Crit Block Chance by 25% AND applies the overflow to Crit Block Chance.

Mini Shield Wall not so Mini anymore.

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Old 01/05/11, 12:42 PM   #139
Cyfir
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Shyrian View Post
Based on your stats, you're also getting a free 25% in that calculation.

76.65% + 5% miss + 25% shield block + the 25% mystery bonus = 131
84.18 + 5% + 25% SB + 25% mystery bonus = 139
90.96 + 5 + 25% SB + 25% mystery bonus = 145

And really interesting is that with your mastery when you proc the crab and then bust shield block and add in hold the line, your block is ~90% and your crit block is ~85%. If both procs and HTL were up, your crit block would be higher than your block.
An examination of the effects of Shield Block and Critical Block at Wowhead appears to indicate that they're using the same aura applications for both shield block and mastery. It is possible the 25% Critblock is because despite what the tooltip says, the actual effect of shield block is to give you 25% worth of mastery, and after that, convert excess block to critblock.

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Old 01/05/11, 12:44 PM   #140
Booi
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
Careful there, only the overflow block from Shield Block is converted to crit block, not all overflow block.
Pretty significant oversight on my part... but moving forward then:

179.28 mastery rating would bring you 1.5% critical block.
176.71899 dodge would bring you 1% pre dr avoid.

1% pre DR avoid is 1% damage reduction all the time (independent of shield block - pre DR)
1.5% critical block is 0.642% damage reduction (before shield block)

So when does avoidance DR to under 64% efficiency?
~2500 of an avoidance rating.

averaging in shield block, requires closer to 3000 of an avoidance rating to balance.

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Old 01/05/11, 4:00 PM   #141
Comohawk
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Velen
Originally Posted by Bloodhawker View Post
If the 2% armor class bonus increases your armor class from 58.14% to 58.72% (I think that is what you are describing), it doesn't mitigate .48% of the 40k hit you're taking with 58.14% armor class, but .48% of the ~100k hit you would be taking with zero armor class.
Another thing you didn't include is critical block. You are currently at around 12% critical block, which would increase the Eternal Diamond's score to ~70.8k.
Edit: Note that all our calculations are without Shield Block or Hold the Line.

Okey so if i replug the numbers.. My new armor total would be -272.3712 extra multiplyed by 300 for 81,711.36 over 300 hits. and if i redue the block+crit block with the apporx 70% i get 84,000. i dont even need to calculate my shield block+hold the line because its already better. even if 70% is of a bit thats about 2300 more dmg reduction without even considering hold the line/shield block which would only make that number go up. Anyone got anything that says this block meta is NOT better than the armor please speak up!

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Old 01/05/11, 5:03 PM   #142
Shyrian
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Azuremyst
So with this strange shield block behavior and assuming we are getting 25% mystery bonus on the shield block rollover calculation, I have reran the numbers to find a point where you reach 100% critical block with shield block up.

The magic number seems to be somewhere around 30 total mastery (22 from gear). This changes a little with avoidance stats. For arguments sake, let's assume you have about 25% from dodge and parry which seems to be the norm with current gear.

5% miss + ~25% total avoidance from dodge and parry combined (9% dodge and 16% parry) + 5% base block + 15% sentinel + 12% base mastery + 33% block from mastery gear + 25% shield block + 25% mystery bonus = 145% - a 45% rollover to crit block.

Crit block would then be:
45% rollover + 33% crit block from mastery gear + 12% crit block from base mastery + 10% from hold the line = 100% crit block

That is approximately 3961 mastery to have 100% crit block with shield block.

Something tells me this isn't the intended behavior of shield block. I anticipate a nerf.

Last edited by Shyrian : 01/05/11 at 5:05 PM. Reason: Fixed rollover calc

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Old 01/05/11, 8:51 PM   #143
Darkmgl
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Arygos
Originally Posted by Shyrian View Post
So with this strange shield block behavior and assuming we are getting 25% mystery bonus on the shield block rollover calculation, I have reran the numbers to find a point where you reach 100% critical block with shield block up.

The magic number seems to be somewhere around 30 total mastery (22 from gear). This changes a little with avoidance stats. For arguments sake, let's assume you have about 25% from dodge and parry which seems to be the norm with current gear.

5% miss + ~25% total avoidance from dodge and parry combined (9% dodge and 16% parry) + 5% base block + 15% sentinel + 12% base mastery + 33% block from mastery gear + 25% shield block + 25% mystery bonus = 145% - a 45% rollover to crit block.

Crit block would then be:
45% rollover + 33% crit block from mastery gear + 12% crit block from base mastery + 10% from hold the line = 100% crit block

That is approximately 3961 mastery to have 100% crit block with shield block.

Something tells me this isn't the intended behavior of shield block. I anticipate a nerf.
We had noticed this really early in our raiding 10 mans about the 25% extra critical block chance. It definitely does not seem to be intended and in our eyes it has put the prot warrior significantly ahead of all other tanks in mitigation right now with paladins following in second place. Whenever they get around to rebalancing the tanks (poor feral druids) they will probably either catch this glitch or adjust something else to compensate for it.

I'm enjoying it while it lasts though, I know this is a place of numbers and not hunches but my shield block feels more powerful than shield wall in many situations at the moment. Higher mastery just seems to amplify this effect. This should not effect Mastery from being the best avoidance stat to stack though, but it will diminish the effect of it a bit.

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Old 01/06/11, 2:36 AM   #144
Vohbo
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Aggramar (EU)
I don't think the meta choice is necessarily dependant on which one gives the higher overal damage reduction. As was shown by the math, the difference is not huge.
If you can guarantee that in the fight you will be able to block all the time, then the block meta is slightly better. This is not always the case though.
I will argue that decreasing the damage taken from already blocked or critically blocked attacks (which is already pretty weak) a bit further due to higher block value, is often less important than reducing the incoming damage from unblocked attacks through armor (be it due to stun, movement, or simply not having reached sufficient evasion levels).

From what I have seen in raids so far in Cataclysm, healers seem to have more problems with heavy bursts that require them to spend more expensive spells than with slightly higher damage intake over time.

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Old 01/06/11, 10:33 AM   #145
absø
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Sargeras (EU)
Many of you, when selecting a metagem, seem to forget its prerequisites. The 5% block value metagem requires only 2 blue gems where the 2% armor requires 2 green ones. At the moment, I only have 1 yellow socket on my gear, which forces me to put a mastery/stam gem in a blue socket to activate the 2% armor metagem. As this metagem implies a straight 30 stam loss, I think that we're better of with the 5% block metagem.

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Old 01/06/11, 10:35 AM   #146
roarc
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Zenedar (EU)
Very interesting thread and the Shield Block situation really is confusing. Has anyone tested if the numbers are correct or if it's just a tool-tip error from Blizzards part?

Also, according to the single-target rotation you've completely left Shockwave and Concussion Blow out. As far as I can tell they generate more DPS and DPS / Rage than Devastate and esp. if considering the GCD prior to Shield Slam off cool-down they should be more efficient to use, shouldn't they? A Sword and Board proc here would be more rage-efficient and perhaps would lead to 1 more heroic strike and / or the use of Inner Rage, but if you're not rage-starved, wouldn't the use of Shockwave / Concussion Blow be better?

Also the application of rend by using Thunder Struck from Thunder Clap... I presume we want to use this the lats 2 or so seconds of the Rend application? Or is it better to let rend tick off to 0 and then reapply it using rend? (again, I'm talking single target).

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Old 01/06/11, 11:00 AM   #147
hikarodesu
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by absø View Post
Many of you, when selecting a metagem, seem to forget its prerequisites. The 5% block value metagem requires only 2 blue gems where the 2% armor requires 2 green ones. At the moment, I only have 1 yellow socket on my gear, which forces me to put a mastery/stam gem in a blue socket to activate the 2% armor metagem. As this metagem implies a straight 30 stam loss, I think that we're better of with the 5% block metagem.
Seeing as how most tanks are gemming pure mastery, I don't think your argument is too valid. Don't get me wrong, I much prefer the 5% block metagem, and it is the one I am using, however, most tanks are already using 20mastery/30stam in blue sockets, 40mastery in yellow sockets and 20parry/20mastery in red sockets. As long as you have 150k unbuffed health, avoidance will help out more than a larger health pool (which requires more heals to top off)

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Old 01/06/11, 11:44 AM   #148
Shyrian
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Azuremyst
Originally Posted by roarc View Post
Very interesting thread and the Shield Block situation really is confusing. Has anyone tested if the numbers are correct or if it's just a tool-tip error from Blizzards part?
Anybody know of a log analyzer that identifies critical blocks? I haven't found one yet so I did some manual analysis using excel to try to confirm the stats. I did not collect enough data for it to be scientific yet - just used a sample to set up some macros to be able to calculate the results.. I'll try to focus on it tonight.

My gear is crap though. I could benefit from a log file from a properly geared tank to run the analysis on.

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Old 01/06/11, 2:27 PM   #149
Shan
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Warrior
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Shyrian View Post
Anybody know of a log analyzer that identifies critical blocks? I haven't found one yet so I did some manual analysis using excel to try to confirm the stats. I did not collect enough data for it to be scientific yet - just used a sample to set up some macros to be able to calculate the results.. I'll try to focus on it tonight.
I tested it a while back (at lvl 80). The shield block BUFF tooltip is correct as I had about 86% critical block in my parse with SB up.

It's unlikely that this is an error since it actually fixed SB scaling issues and raised the average damage reduction of SB from <20% (and further decreasing with gear).

Last edited by Shan : 01/06/11 at 2:35 PM. Reason: grammar and clarity

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Old 01/06/11, 2:54 PM   #150
Deathwing
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Should SB damage reduction be over 20%? It's only a 30s CD.

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