[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 16

DeadpeopleRising · 01/31/11, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Quiks

What part are you dying on specifically? Yes, disc priests are quite OP for the encounter, but that is mainly for the last phase where the dot becomes your enrage timer. You should only have to pop cds inside of a feud in which you are tanking (or shield block for the first double attack coming out of feud). The healers have to time big heals with possible feud incomings so that your HP will be at a reasonable level for the first attack going into feud. As long as you survive the initial attack going into feud and have shield wall up for the double attack AND the remainder regular attacks in feud (where you get the second break stack), you should not die in feud.

The times I am dying are when the boss double attacks. Or right when I Taunt the boss off the other tank I am getting one shotted and I don't understand why. Is this just bad timing or am i not using my Cooldowns at the right times ?

Quiks · 01/31/11, 5:11 PM

These are the ONLY times you NEED to use cds on heroic chimaeron.

transitioning into feud so that you have enough HP to survive the first attack. Shield block + last stand if your HP isn't healthy.

You need to shield wall the double attack, but within 2 seconds of him hitting you so that the shield wall lasts through the second break application. If you don't have 4 piece the timing is pretty tight. Know that his double attack is sync'd with the caustic slime cooldown.

shield block the first double attack after feud. (where you have 2 break stacks)

Phase 2 is straight burn and you should be using any cd that is up because the longer you survive, the greater the chance of success.

If you do all this perfectly and still die, its on the healers.

Also, from my experience I've only seen intervene not work once.you guys confirmed to me that there is Ann issue with it but you may as well use it in the position where you aren't taking to prevent a gib. Also consider safeguard if you are having a lot of trouble.

DeadpeopleRising · 01/31/11, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Quiks

These are the ONLY times you NEED to use cds on heroic chimaeron.

transitioning into feud so that you have enough HP to survive the first attack. Shield block + last stand if your HP isn't healthy.

You need to shield wall the double attack, but within 2 seconds of him hitting you so that the shield wall lasts through the second break application. If you don't have 4 piece the timing is pretty tight. Know that his double attack is sync'd with the caustic slime cooldown.

shield block the first double attack after feud. (where you have 2 break stacks)

Phase 2 is straight burn and you should be using any cd that is up because the longer you survive, the greater the chance of success.

If you do all this perfectly and still die, its on the healers.

Also, from my experience I've only seen intervene not work once.you guys confirmed to me that there is Ann issue with it but you may as well use it in the position where you aren't taking to prevent a gib. Also consider safeguard if you are having a lot of trouble.

Ok thank you very much. I will give this a try even with Intervene and see how I fair. If all goes well I will pm you and let you know whats up

. Thank you again for your information and help.

GnomeTank · 01/31/11, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by ceasefire

I regularly look at the decisions of the top tanks in the world and notice a trend. About 6 out of the 7 tanks (only exception being Kungen) are gemming for Stamina instead of avoidance (Defender's in Red, Solid in Blue, Puissant in Yellow). Kungen is retaining the Fine/Fractured/Puissant combo I thought was standard.

I don't have experience with very many heroics (our guild is 10/12) so I don't know what is causing the change. Does the increased damage just require a bigger health pool? Is there a consensus on which gemming option is best?

I am not able to look at their armories right now (work has the Armory blocked), but is it a situation where they have reached 77.4% avoidance with just gear and enchants, and are shedding some to keep themselves at that magical 77.4% balance, while still raising their HP pool?

I have a hard time believing the best tanks in the world just decided to revert to Wrath thinking off hand.

MudNova · 01/31/11, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Shan

I have noticed that Intervene often fails to transfer any hits from Double Attack.
It's just RNG, or your not reading logs properly.

I've seen it aswell, . since some times when I Intervene I get the hit, and sometimes I don't.. And about the 'not being hit' I think he means that, he's not getting full hits... As someone was saying something about not blocking the attacks even with Shield block up..

Originally Posted by GnomeTank

I have a hard time believing the best tanks in the world just decided to revert to Wrath thinking off hand.

One of the reasons of why those tanks are gearing up for stamina might be the fact that it is still the only reliable stat, or because of the high amounts of magic damage, it's also up to the healers... Maybe their healers just rather to heal a tank with a higher health pool...

GnomeTank · 02/01/11, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by MudNova

One of the reasons of why those tanks are gearing up for stamina might be the fact that it is still the only reliable stat, or because of the high amounts of magic damage, it's also up to the healers... Maybe their healers just rather to heal a tank with a higher health pool...

The entire thought process would go against everything that's been discussed for months about Cata. Huge health pools with crap avoidance are much harder to heal than moderate health pools with good avoidance. This was not the case in Wrath, as most of us know at this point. If this has suddenly become the case at the top tier of raiding (and I still question that), then Blizzard has a serious gear scaling issue they need to look at.

PessimistByNature · 02/01/11, 6:55 PM

Well, this is all only theoretical until someone asks them, but it may be that the difference arises precisely because they are in guilds on the bleeding edge of raid progression. With extremely geared dps, fights are shorter. With shorter fights, extremely geared healers worry less about mana. With less emphasis on mana conservation, the avoidance vs EH debate move back towards Wrath of the Lich King.

GnomeTank · 02/01/11, 7:28 PM

Then I go back to my point about a gear scaling issue. I think your point about them being on the very bleeding edge of content is very relevant though. The types of situations they are seeing (BiS geared DPS and healers) is not what the majority of us are dealing with, I would think (I know I'm not :P).

Once the average raider gets to the point where they are finishing off the last few raid bosses before 4.1, I don't think it's an issue we'll much worry about, because the 4.1 content should be tuned for that gear, and we go back to square one: Avoidance is not to be avoided (see what I did there?) in this expansion.

I guess the end point is this: I wouldn't start making my gem choices based on what the top 10 bleeding edge tanks in the game are doing. I'd base it much more on the pretty solid math that's floating around for the more "average" tank.

Dragoth12 · 02/01/11, 7:32 PM

After reading through this thread I realized that I may have had too high a ratio between Parry and Dodge (as in I would be losing mitigation due to diminishing returns on the parry because it was nearly 50% higher than dodge). I decided to see how much I was losing by reforging all my dodge to parry.

I was sitting at 8.76% Dodge and 14.47% Parry, so a combined mitigation of 23.23%. I removed the reforging on everything that I had reforged Dodge --> Parry. This brought my total mitigation combined (sorry, forgot to write down the exact values of the two, but it brought Dodge up to around 10% and Parry down to around 13%) to only 23.38%, so while I was definitely losing a very small amount of overall mitigation (0.15% to be exact) the loss in Parry and subsequent loss of Hold the Line up time was definitely not worth it.

Do we have a definitive point where you would want to stop reforging Dodge to Parry due to diminishing returns? I know data shows that it is wise to keep the two fairly close, but at what point do the DR of Parry out weigh the benefits of additional Hold the Line procs?

Nkari · 02/02/11, 9:16 PM

No definites as of yet imho, tho I would stay away from going above 2x dodge rating myself.. I guess until we hit the next tier the ratio dodge vs parry is not that much of an issue imho.

Rustyboy · 02/02/11, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by ceasefire View Post
I regularly look at the decisions of the top tanks in the world and notice a trend. About 6 out of the 7 tanks (only exception being Kungen) are gemming for Stamina instead of avoidance (Defender's in Red, Solid in Blue, Puissant in Yellow). Kungen is retaining the Fine/Fractured/Puissant combo I thought was standard.

You have to be extremely careful when looking at world first progression tanks, sometimes their gearing/spec choices are based purely on the 1 encounter the guild needs to kill. Combine this with logs and feedback from healers and what role that tank is actually playing in the raids. If they are tanking mobs/bosses that have low physical damage but high magical damage then having them gear for more stamina is not out of the ordinary.

Grimmli · 02/03/11, 3:05 AM

Originally Posted by ceasefire

I regularly look at the decisions of the top tanks in the world and notice a trend. About 6 out of the 7 tanks (only exception being Kungen) are gemming for Stamina instead of avoidance (Defender's in Red, Solid in Blue, Puissant in Yellow). Kungen is retaining the Fine/Fractured/Puissant combo I thought was standard.

I don't have experience with very many heroics (our guild is 10/12) so I don't know what is causing the change. Does the increased damage just require a bigger health pool? Is there a consensus on which gemming option is best?

this is most likely due to the usage of Elune's Blessing (Elune's Blessing - Spell - World of Warcraft), which makes Stamina much more attractive! Especially for Progress Raiding

MasterDinadan · 02/03/11, 8:28 AM

Originally Posted by Grimmli

this is most likely due to the usage of Elune's Blessing (Elune's Blessing - Spell - World of Warcraft), which makes Stamina much more attractive! Especially for Progress Raiding

Elune's Blessing doesn't stack with Blessing of Kings or Mark of the Wild, so in most cases it's not actually going to help you in a raid.

Thorgalls · 02/03/11, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Myul

Intervene doesn't work on double attack at all.

It does, really. We use it (only during feud though) and it always worked.

Shan · 02/03/11, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgalls

It does, really. We use it (only during feud though) and it always worked.

(pet) Intervene doesn't work for us most of the time:

[18:21:52.843] Donatello casts Intervene on Dayle
[18:21:53.046] Dayle gains Intervene from Donatello
[18:21:56.015] Chimaeron's Double Attack fades from Chimaeron
[18:21:56.015] Chimaeron gains 1 extra attacks from Chimaeron's Double Attack
[18:21:56.031] Chimaeron hits Dayle 36652 (A: 4896, B: 67789)
[18:21:56.250] Chimaeron hits Dayle 39223 (B: 63996)
[18:22:00.843] Chimaeron hits Dayle 42304 (A: 3408, B: 74584)
[18:22:03.109] Donatello's Intervene fades from Dayle

Neither the Double Attack nor the regular melee is transfered to the turtle pet. Intervene just expires without having done anything.