Elitist Jerks [Cataclysm] Protection Warrior

 02/11/11, 3:59 PM #256 swcarden Glass Joe   Kolmagorov Tauren Warrior   Madoran @Booi The answer is b), combat ratings. The functions accepts combat ratings and a sub-function determines post DR avoidance percentages that are used in mitigation calculations. So, for example, if your particular stats corresponded to 1.25 on the Y axis, then your parry tooltip should be 125% of your dodge tooltip. @Shan I'm glad to hear that. Even if we made different assumptions about the tanking situation, it makes intuitive sense that the difference in the best ratio should be relatively small.
02/13/11, 4:29 PM   #258
Shan
Piston Honda

Draenei Warrior

Ravencrest (EU)
 Originally Posted by Yellowsix Would it be possible to tweak the output of your matlab program (or Shan -- your spreadsheet) to report this statistic? It would be quite helpful -- we're hoping to make askmrrobot.com a definitive source for choosing and optimizing protection warrior gear.
The way I'm calculating HtL uptime in Excel is
1-(1-ParryChance)^(10/TimeBetweenAttacks)

with parry chance being 0.1587% for example. TimeBetweenAttacks should be self-explanatory and is in seconds.

This yields values that are very close to that of a simulation a guild member wrote for me, so I went with it.

Personally I'm completely unable to come up with an elegant and comprehensive formula. I'm pretty sure someone better at math than me could come up with a (relatively) simple formula that is pretty close to what the graph shows though.

The way I compare the ratings is to just calculate damage taken four different times (once with current stats, once with an extra 40 parry rating, once with an extra 40 mastery rating, once with an extra 40 dodge rating). That allows me to see the effect of each of the three ratings. It's a fairly elaborate process as many different things need to be taken into account.

 Also, I am assuming that when you guys say that parry/dodge rating become equal to each other is the point at which hold the line has a 100% up-time, and adding more parry no longer increases it?
It's not possible to get anywhere near 100% uptime in practice. At lower parry chances HtL uptime increases pretty quickly but it slows down later. That's why the curve on the graph starts becoming more and more flat as the ratings increase.

The reason that it's possible for dodge rating to became as useful as parry rating is due to diminishing returns.

Last edited by Shan : 02/13/11 at 4:38 PM.

 02/13/11, 4:39 PM #259 Yellowsix Piston Honda   Yellowsix Worgen Druid   Suramar Thanks Shan -- I found a little time this afternoon and yeah, after looking at it for a bit it becomes pretty apparent that you can't get 100% up-time on hold the line! I wrote a very quick program to spit out average up-time on hold the line at different parry values, assuming you are getting hit every 2.5 seconds: ```parry chance hold the line up-time increase from previous value of parry 0.01: 03.90 % 00.00 0.02: 07.84 % 03.94 0.03: 11.52 % 03.67 0.04: 14.96 % 03.45 0.05: 18.51 % 03.54 0.06: 21.95 % 03.45 0.07: 25.12 % 03.17 0.08: 28.39 % 03.27 0.09: 31.39 % 02.99 0.10: 34.23 % 02.85 0.11: 37.33 % 03.09 0.12: 40.07 % 02.74 0.13: 42.90 % 02.83 0.14: 45.23 % 02.33 0.15: 47.94 % 02.71 0.16: 50.19 % 02.25 0.17: 52.54 % 02.35 0.18: 54.71 % 02.17 0.19: 56.89 % 02.17 0.20: 59.00 % 02.12``` This is a pretty basic proc calculation, but ultimately this is what you want to know in order to weight parry in relation to dodge: if I add X parry rating, how many more critical blocks will I get? Of course you also have to factor in your current block rate -- I'll be doing that in the code as well. Using this data, I'm going to generate some new default stat weights for askmrrobot.com. Since our code automatically adjusts parry/dodge for diminishing returns, and automatically adjusts the value of mastery as you get more of it (note that the latter is not live yet, but will be in the next day or two), I'm hoping that our website will start generating some very good sets of protection warrior gear. I will cross-reference it with the information in this thread when I'm done -- I expect the optimizer to start balancing dodge/parry at similar ratios to the graph above.
 02/14/11, 7:43 PM #260 Yellowsix Piston Honda   Yellowsix Worgen Druid   Suramar I have updated Mr. Robot to account for critical block and hold the line in our BiS gear lists and gem/enchant/reforge optimizations. Note that even though the default weights say that parry/dodge are better than mastery, that's just at a "base" level: no DR on parry/dodge, and only the base 8 mastery (32% block and ~14% crit block, get an extra 2% from ~20% hold the line up-time at the base 5% parry). Once you start putting on gear, mastery comes out ahead of dodge/parry pretty quickly, and you'll see that it suggests gemming/reforging to increase mastery, for the most part -- this dynamic adjustment of the stat weights is done automatically behind the scenes. I plan to put up an article explaining exactly how we do it sometime in the next couple of days. Note also that the code automatically handles balancing dodge/parry to reduce the effects of DR. The ratio of parry to dodge should be pretty close to those in the graph a few posts up. Anyway, check it out -- Mr. Robot should be coming up with some pretty good protection warrior gear sets now.
02/16/11, 10:45 AM   #261
zork
Don Flamenco

Dwarf Warrior

Aegwynn (EU)
I spent some time on Wowhead creating three lists of tank items sorted by score. The stat weighting used can be found in the link.

Gearing up for heroics
Item list, ilvl 318-333

List consists of: Quest rewards, reputation rewards until honored and drops from normal dungeons.

Gearing up for raids
Item list, ilvl 346-359

List consists of: Reputation rewards from revered till exalted, crafted epic items, drops from heroic dungeons and drops from raid bosses.

Gearing up for heroic raids
Item list, ilvl 359+

List consists of: Drops from normal and heroic raid bosses aswell as crafted epic gear and exalted reputation rewards.

Last edited by zork : 02/16/11 at 10:56 AM.

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02/16/11, 1:44 PM   #262
Shan
Piston Honda

Draenei Warrior

Ravencrest (EU)
 Originally Posted by Yellowsix Anyway, check it out -- Mr. Robot should be coming up with some pretty good protection warrior gear sets now.
It looks pretty good. Congratulations on putting this together.

However the stat weighting for bonus armor can't be right. They suggest that dodge rating is 10 times better than bonus armor. Yes, I realize they are essentially for a naked character, but still.

According to my own calculations, the cost of +1 bonus armor is 0.25 now (with the cost of any rating still being 1). So we should compare, say, 400 bonus armor to 100 dodge rating.
In my spreadsheet, with my current gear, the 400 bonus armor gives ~59% of the damage reduction over time that the 100 dodge rating gives (with +2% armor meta and full raid buffs).

Last edited by Shan : 02/16/11 at 1:49 PM.

 02/16/11, 4:59 PM #263 swcarden Glass Joe   Kolmagorov Tauren Warrior   Madoran I did some calculations similar to Shan's above. Using my code with my character's gear, I compared 1 dodge rating to 1 armor rating, and found 1 dodge rating to be worth 5.0528 as much as much as 1 armor rating. So that we are comparing apples to apples, let's change the units on Shan's result. 400 armor worth .59 as much as 100 dodge => 1 armor worth .1475 as much as 1 dodge => 1 dodge worth 6.7797 as much as 1 armor Now, Shan's character has much better gear than mine, so it makes sense that he values armor less than me. Armor is only useful for non-avoided attacks. Because he has higher avoidance, he takes less of those while I take more. I've looked at the armor weight calculation on your forums. I may have a suggestion to improve it, in which case I'll post there.
 02/18/11, 6:27 AM #264 Jayde Great Tiger     Kojiyama Night Elf Warrior   Silvermoon (EU) I have done quite extensive work recently in getting the relative calculations of Dodge vs. Parry vs. Mastery working accurately in Rawr.ProtWarr, and if you haven't checked it out yet I would encourage you to do so. Using the Optimizer to optimize for Mitigation generally results in very well-balanced results. The main reason to use the Optimizer rather than looking at relative stat values or a spreadsheet is that after looking at this for some time, the relative value of each element fluctuates pretty massively back and forth. While the DR curves and Mastery vs. Avoidance curves are simple enough on their own, the interaction is somewhat complex especially considering how both Hold the Line the Mastery work. Shield Block uptime also influences things a fair bit, which is also supported now. (In regard to the conversations of the two-roll nature of Critical Block: much testing on PTR was done on this, and it was pretty clear that it was two-roll. I have a number of logs which support this.) Last edited by Jayde : 02/18/11 at 6:42 AM.
 02/18/11, 12:26 PM #265 Bragoon Glass Joe     Braag Human Warrior   Executus Only when you begin to have threat issues post vengeance stacks would I begin to worry about threat. You are going to have a few people who have high threat (warriors hunters and mages mostly) but everything should smooth out after that. If its that much of a worry you could always use a weapon swap macro for high threat weapon/shield until vengance stacks up.
02/19/11, 3:13 PM   #266
Tmender
Glass Joe

Human Warrior

Garona
 Originally Posted by Jayde I have done quite extensive work recently in getting the relative calculations of Dodge vs. Parry vs. Mastery working accurately in Rawr.ProtWarr, and if you haven't checked it out yet I would encourage you to do so. Using the Optimizer to optimize for Mitigation generally results in very well-balanced results. The main reason to use the Optimizer rather than looking at relative stat values or a spreadsheet is that after looking at this for some time, the relative value of each element fluctuates pretty massively back and forth. While the DR curves and Mastery vs. Avoidance curves are simple enough on their own, the interaction is somewhat complex especially considering how both Hold the Line the Mastery work. Shield Block uptime also influences things a fair bit, which is also supported now. (In regard to the conversations of the two-roll nature of Critical Block: much testing on PTR was done on this, and it was pretty clear that it was two-roll. I have a number of logs which support this.)
Any idea when we'll see these changes in Rawr?

 02/21/11, 5:48 AM #267 Jayde Great Tiger     Kojiyama Night Elf Warrior   Silvermoon (EU) Should all be in now. Latest version (.20) was posted yesterday, I believe.
02/26/11, 9:56 AM   #268
SubMatrix
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Blackrock
In regards to the Mastery vs. dodge/parry discussion, I noticed that most people comment that the benefits of dodge and parry diminish with higher rating whereas mastery stays the same. I threw together a little spreadsheet and if my math is right it looks like mastery actually scales up the more you have (apparently due to the increased block chance simultaneously increasing the amount critically blocked.)

I started with a base mastery of 8, which on a naked 85 warrior gives 32% block and 12% crit block.
I took a base damage amount of 1000 and factored that 320 of that damage would be "blocked". Of that 320 damage:

88% would be blocked normally for 84.48 (320 * .88 * .3 = 84.48)
12% would be critically blocked for 24.04 (320 * .12 * .6 = 23.04)

For a grand total of 107.52 damage, giving 8 mastery a damage mitigation of 10.75%.

I applied the same formula up to 30 mastery. I tracked the difference between each point of mastery and by how much additional points increased mitigation. Assuming the logic behind the math is correct, your first point of mastery (9 points total) increases your mitigation by .65%, whereas your 22nd point (30 points total) would increase your mitigation by .94%.

To double check this upwards scaling, I applied the same math to a paladin's mastery which only gives 2.5% block chance and no crit block and they had a constant .675% mitigation increase per point of mastery.

So in essence, stacking mastery only gets better the more you have. For those who care, it appears that the incremental mitigation increase per point of mastery is equal to 1.0135%. Meaning, adding another point of mastery will give you the same mitigation increase as the previous point plus PLUS 0.0135%. Below is the table that tracks each point of mastery 8-30.

 Block Critical Blocked Damage % % Mastery... Chance... Block... (Out of 1000)... Mitigated... Mitigated Difference... Difference... 8 0.320 0.120 320 107.52 10.75% 9 0.335 0.135 335 114.07 11.41% 6.5475 0.65% 10 0.350 0.150 350 120.75 12.08% 6.6825 0.67% 11 0.365 0.165 365 127.57 12.76% 6.8175 0.68% 12 0.380 0.180 380 134.52 13.45% 6.9525 0.70% 13 0.395 0.195 395 141.61 14.16% 7.0875 0.71% 14 0.410 0.210 410 148.83 14.88% 7.2225 0.72% 15 0.425 0.225 425 156.19 15.62% 7.3575 0.74% 16 0.440 0.240 440 163.68 16.37% 7.4925 0.75% 17 0.455 0.255 455 171.31 17.13% 7.6275 0.76% 18 0.470 0.270 470 179.07 17.91% 7.7625 0.78% 19 0.485 0.285 485 186.97 18.70% 7.8975 0.79% 20 0.500 0.300 500 195.00 19.50% 8.0325 0.80% 21 0.515 0.315 515 203.17 20.32% 8.1675 0.82% 22 0.530 0.330 530 211.47 21.15% 8.3025 0.83% 23 0.545 0.345 545 219.91 21.99% 8.4375 0.84% 24 0.560 0.360 560 228.48 22.85% 8.5725 0.86% 25 0.575 0.375 575 237.19 23.72% 8.7075 0.87% 26 0.590 0.390 590 246.03 24.60% 8.8425 0.88% 27 0.605 0.405 605 255.01 25.50% 8.9775 0.90% 28 0.620 0.420 620 264.12 26.41% 9.1125 0.91% 29 0.635 0.435 635 273.37 27.34% 9.2475 0.92% 30 0.650 0.450 650 282.75 28.28% 9.3825 0.94%

 02/27/11, 3:26 PM #269 Cetana Glass Joe   Cetana Orc Rogue   Darkspear I like the graph Submatrix, and it makes sense that mastery would behave that way thanks to critical block also being increased. However, I'm wondering how mastery stacking is affected when approaching (and surpassing) the soft unhittable cap with shield block up since every point of normal block is wasted above that threshold. Does the increasing returns in mitigation for 66% of the time (shield block down) make up for the waste of mastery when pushing over the unhittable soft cap 33% of the time (shield block up)?
02/27/11, 7:36 PM   #270
Broseph
Piston Honda

Gnome Priest

Dalaran
 Originally Posted by Cetana I like the graph Submatrix, and it makes sense that mastery would behave that way thanks to critical block also being increased. However, I'm wondering how mastery stacking is affected when approaching (and surpassing) the soft unhittable cap with shield block up since every point of normal block is wasted above that threshold. Does the increasing returns in mitigation for 66% of the time (shield block down) make up for the waste of mastery when pushing over the unhittable soft cap 33% of the time (shield block up)?
Every point of normal block above that threshold is converted to critical block, not wasted (Shield Block - Spell - World of Warcraft). It shouldn't make a difference.

 Elitist Jerks [Cataclysm] Protection Warrior