[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 2

Mokkhyr · 12/13/10, 10:26 AM

kukulza: Thanks! According to your values the gem does not work as the description suggests, as it should at least buff the block value to 31,5% (0.3*1.05). Instead, it seems to be 31,05%.

I wondered how strong it is compared to the "good old" Austere Shadowspirit Diamond. (T11 provides ~36k armor)

Regular hit
Damage taken with Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.9 * (1 - 36000 / (36000 + 2167.5 * 88 - 158167.5)) = 0.427507382
Damage taken with Austere Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.9 * (1 - 36000 * 1.02 / (36000 * 1.02 + 2167.5 * 88 - 158167.5)) = 0.423065266

Block
Damage taken with Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.427507382 * (1 - 0.3105) = 0.294766339
Damage taken with Austere Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.423065266 * (1 - 0.3) = 0.296145686

Crit block
Damage taken with Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.427507382 * (1 - 0.621) = 0.162025297
Damage taken with Austere Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.423065266 * (1 - 0.6) = 0.169226106

Regarding crit block, the 0.621 value is not confirmed yet. It's just my assumption.

I did some napkin math based on these values & my current gear stats (1600 mastery rating) and the Eternal one seems to come out ahead in terms of overall damage mitigation. Unfortunately I'm not capable of doing the proper math factoring in Shield Block and HtL, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

adamsblueguitar · 12/13/10, 10:58 AM

AoE Threat Priority:

Rend > Thunder Clap > Shockwave > Revenge

I'm a little confused. What is your recommended rotation for engaging a group of trash mobs?

Let's assume we can charge in. I'm assuming you don't suggest rending first, before even a shield slam?

What I've been doing is:

Charge --> Shield Slam --> Rend --> Thunderclap --> Shockwave --> Revenge and other stuff

Is that right?

In randoms, I've been having trouble with that rotation because it seems the DPS have started in and AOEing before I get to my first AOE (third global cooldown, thunderclap). [which may be an adjustment all DPS are going to have to make...]

Pinnick · 12/13/10, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Aurarian

I think I could have clarified what I said better. What I meant was to forge most of your dodge into mastery and to leave parry alone due to Hold the Line.

Gotcha -- yep.

Kuska · 12/13/10, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by adamsblueguitar

I'm a little confused. What is your recommended rotation for engaging a group of trash mobs?

Let's assume we can charge in. I'm assuming you don't suggest rending first, before even a shield slam?

What I've been doing is:

Charge --> Shield Slam --> Rend --> Thunderclap --> Shockwave --> Revenge and other stuff

Is that right?

In randoms, I've been having trouble with that rotation because it seems the DPS have started in and AOEing before I get to my first AOE (third global cooldown, thunderclap). [which may be an adjustment all DPS are going to have to make...]

I like to Charge in, and Rend at the same time as I Cleave. It can be risky, especially if you start rage-starved. Most of the time you should have enough time to use Rend > TClap, unless your DPS is retarded.

MADMark · 12/13/10, 11:24 AM

I don't see SS in the OP for AoE, probably because it effects only one target. If you don't have 2 GCDs, its a DPS problem, not a tanking problem.

Pinnick · 12/13/10, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by adamsblueguitar

I'm a little confused. What is your recommended rotation for engaging a group of trash mobs?

Let's assume we can charge in. I'm assuming you don't suggest rending first, before even a shield slam?

What I've been doing is:

Charge --> Shield Slam --> Rend --> Thunderclap --> Shockwave --> Revenge and other stuff

Is that right?

In randoms, I've been having trouble with that rotation because it seems the DPS have started in and AOEing before I get to my first AOE (third global cooldown, thunderclap). [which may be an adjustment all DPS are going to have to make...]

I don't think starting with SS is a bad idea. I prefer working this rotation so the DPS can focus on the first kill target. Opening w/ SS instead of just rend on the first kill target allows you to have a bit higher lead on that first target. Specifically on the trash mobs and such, I too had the same issues.

Regardless of our rotation in heroics especially, DPS has to get out of the AOE mindset. It's sucking healer mana and just making things a bit tough for us to do our job.

MADMark · 12/13/10, 11:58 AM

Yes, that's the obvious problem, but I think part of the problem might be our own, how WE now define an AoE pull. I think what you're talking about, in regard to the viability of SS, is a small group (3 to 4 elites) not true AoE. Yes, it contains more than one mob, but they should be single targeted down. In that case, I totally agree with you, but in case of something with 10-20 non-elites, I don't think SS is appropriate. In other words, if the DPS SHOULD be using Blizzard/RoF, skip it, but if they should be focusing on one at a time, the only thing you should have to overcome on the other targets is the healer hate and the splash damage (living bomb and what not), which shouldn't be a problem with fairly stand standard ST rotation (TC, Revenge, etc. but Cleave instead of HS)

Deathwing · 12/13/10, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by MADMark

I don't see SS in the OP for AoE, probably because it effects only one target. If you don't have 2 GCDs, its a DPS problem, not a tanking problem.

Remember, Cleave is a GCD now too, not a on-next-swing, so I wouldn't put it that high on the list of priorities.

Cleave is NOT a GCD now.

I usually open Charge&Heroic Throw -> TClap&Cleave -> Shockwave -> Demo Shout -> Rend -> TClap.

If the dps can't stay on the target I marked/threw my weapon at, that's their fault, they get agro. Stuff hits too hard to wait two GCD to start applying AE threat. They'll be going after the healer very quickly.

cidninja · 12/13/10, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by adamsblueguitar

I'm a little confused. What is your recommended rotation for engaging a group of trash mobs?

Let's assume we can charge in. I'm assuming you don't suggest rending first, before even a shield slam?

What I've been doing is:

Charge --> Shield Slam --> Rend --> Thunderclap --> Shockwave --> Revenge and other stuff

Is that right?

In randoms, I've been having trouble with that rotation because it seems the DPS have started in and AOEing before I get to my first AOE (third global cooldown, thunderclap). [which may be an adjustment all DPS are going to have to make...]

Since we're throwing in opinions, here's how I've been doing it.

Charge > Shockwave > Rend > Thunderclap > cleave, thunderclap, revenge, etc liberally

The Shockwave keeps them stunned so they don't get pulled away before your Blood and Thunder, and then the next Shockwave cooldown just about lines up with your 3 stacks of Thunderstruck, if you use it. That's what I was doing for all the normal 5mans, but now that I'm doing heroics CC is more useful and AoEing everything is less useful of course.

ComMcNeil · 12/14/10, 5:34 AM

I am not quite sure I agree with the sentiment that mastery is better than dodge or parry.

Basically, ~179 mastery rating is required for 1 point of mastery ( = 1.5% block, 1.5% crit block), ~176 dodge/parry rating is required for 1% of dodge or parry respectivly. Dodge/Parry do negate the complete damage, mastery only reduces it by either 30% or 60%. I did some napkin math about this, but even if mastery would grant you 1.5% increase on a block which would theoretically yield 60% dmg reduce (instead of a CHANCE to get you 60% instead of 30%), it still would not be more of a dmg reduce than straight avoidance. And since many many fights now stress the mana bar of the healers, I think not getting any damage (and maybe giving the healers more time to top of the raid) is better there.

If I am completely mistaken, please enlighten me on this, but so far, I reforge every bit of mastery on my gear to avoidance.

illusive_2008 · 12/14/10, 5:49 AM

Guess it depends on how you look at it because if you block you gain rage, with talents. If you avoid all damage expect spells would you have enough rage to be a solid tank with just weapon damage? Think we have always been meant to balance incoming damage and of course while dodge as well as parry are great to avoid damage. We still need to have a strong balance of all three stats I feel.

Honestly do not recall but is the hit table still working that it rolls for: Miss -> Block -> Dodge -> Parry? Overall dodge and parry are also avoidance and block is mitigation it is not really classified as avoidance for most people.

Xav · 12/14/10, 7:51 AM

The idea behind having a very high amount of mastery (and thus block %) is to have full coverage, and guarantee you have a permanent 30% damage reduction, at minimum, vs melee swings (the bulk of all damage nearly all bosses do). The easiest tanks to heal are those that take steady damage, not those that take spiky damage. Even if the spiky damage tank is taking say less than half of the overall damage (compared to a 'steady' tank), it can be more difficult to heal because of the wide variance in swing damage.

Deathwing · 12/14/10, 8:21 AM

Xav, I talked with my guildmate that works at Blizzard, he confirmed that taunt resist has been removed. Which is by far the best change of the expac. I wonder how much we have to care about threat stats now, beyond maybe soft capping expertise.

Otori · 12/14/10, 8:38 AM

I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to do my own math or double check these numbers, but according to this post from Tankspot parry+dodge will result in less damage taken until 5400 combined avoidance ratings (mastery included). From there on out it's best to stack mastery.

Also, regarding the threat discussion, assuming these values are correct (I had them saved in my HD from patch 4.0.1, unfortunately can't quote the source):

Concussion Blow - (75/100*AP)*2
Shockwave - (75/100*AP) *2
Heroic Throw - (AP*0.5+12)*1.5
Devastate - [1.5(weapon dmg)+336*(number of sunders on target)]

Our priority becomes:
Shield Slam > Revenge > (Rend - with 30% debuff and/or through BnT) > SW = CB > HT > (Regular Rend) > Devastate

Which probably means Devastate will mostly be used to prevent stacks from dropping.

Note: Shield Slam's formula was changed in 4.0.3 I believe, so I didn't provide it here, but we all agree it's our best threat generating ability.

What really interests me in this discussion is the point for point value of talents like Deep Wounds, Incite and Cruelty have for threat.

Xav · 12/14/10, 9:12 AM

I disagree with you simply due to the fact that there are bosses in 25 player raids, normal difficulty, that can 3 shot a tank - and some bursts upwards of 100-150k damage.