Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warriors

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03/29/11, 12:20 PM   #301
Mearog
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Jubei'Thos
Originally Posted by onesound View Post
I am not sure if this is mentioned in an earlier post or not. But when you apply rend on a single target, is it worth thunder clapping when it is about to fall off the enemy to refresh it if you have the Blood and Thunder talent?
It is worth it every other rend refresh. Rend duration is 15 seconds; the Thunderclap attack speed debuff lasts 30 seconds. So if you rend=>thunderclap=>rend=>thunderclap you will keep both up.

Edit: only true if you don't have thunderclap glyphed. See below.

Last edited by Mearog : 03/31/11 at 7:20 PM.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/11, 2:13 PM   #302
Eetabeetay
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Warrior
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Mearog View Post
It is worth it every other rend refresh. Rend duration is 15 second, the Thunderclap attack speed debuff lasts 30 seconds. So if you rend=>thunderclap=>rend=>thunderclap you will keep both up.
Thunderclap both deals damage and reapplies rend, Rend simply reapplies Rend. You should use Thunderclap every time to reapply rend.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/11, 9:29 PM   #303
Mearog
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Jubei'Thos
Originally Posted by Eetabeetay View Post
Thunderclap both deals damage and reapplies rend, Rend simply reapplies Rend. You should use Thunderclap every time to reapply rend.
You're right. I was thinking of the rage cost difference between the two, and using it for extra heroic strikes, but at a 5 rage difference, it would take 6 uses to get an extra heroic strike into your rotation. It isn't worth it.

Edit: After reading Thebitterfig's comment, I hit up a training dummy and did some napkin math taking into account the extra tick of rend. With my gear, I found that refreshing with thunderclap every other rend duration was netting me roughly a 670 damage loss over the 3 minutes it took for the difference in rage cost to pick up an extra heroic strike. However, this is only true if you are using the Resonating Power glyph to drop the cost of Thunderclap. If you are not using the glyph, you gain 2 heroic strikes over the same duration. This would net me a roughly 2110 damage gain. Again, this was with my gear. Your numbers would probably be different.

Last edited by Mearog : 03/30/11 at 10:14 PM.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03/30/11, 7:09 AM   #304
kahalm
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Spreadsheet V0.11 up and running, added some indroduction (maybe this will reduce the number of private messages/emails requesting to share it), a nice overview tab and the value of buffs.

Spreadsheet V0.11

Prot-Warrior Avoidance Spreadsheet Patch 4.2 ready Spreadsheet v0.26

Austria Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03/30/11, 10:14 AM   #305
thebitterfig
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Eetabeetay View Post
Thunderclap both deals damage and reapplies rend, Rend simply reapplies Rend. You should use Thunderclap every time to reapply rend.
While ultimately correct, you aren't exactly stating the mechanics of Rend properly. When applying a fresh Rend on a target without one, it will tick once immediately, so when you refresh with TC, you don't get that bonus tick. However, this isn't a problem for Prot warriors, since a TC deals significantly more damage than one Rend tick (about three times as much, judging from WoL parses). I just don't want people to get the wrong idea about the mechanics, since the situation is currently reversed for Arms warriors.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03/31/11, 11:52 PM   #306
Nagruk
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Warrior
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by thebitterfig View Post
While ultimately correct, you aren't exactly stating the mechanics of Rend properly. When applying a fresh Rend on a target without one, it will tick once immediately, so when you refresh with TC, you don't get that bonus tick. However, this isn't a problem for Prot warriors, since a TC deals significantly more damage than one Rend tick (about three times as much, judging from WoL parses). I just don't want people to get the wrong idea about the mechanics, since the situation is currently reversed for Arms warriors.
I would suggest that reapplying rend via tclap will always be the better option, considering we're all running with fairly low expertise sets at the moment. As tclap can't be dodged/parried whereas the rend application can, the potential loss of a GCD due to an avoided rend isn't worth it.

Australia Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/03/11, 5:01 PM   #307
Túron
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Mannoroth (EU)
Why is Heavy Savage Armor kit not recommended for Gloves and Bracers? I mean 44 Stamina doesnt sound so bad for me.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/06/11, 9:23 AM   #308
Muspel
Piston Honda
 
Muspel's Avatar
 
Human Warrior
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Túron View Post
Why is Heavy Savage Armor kit not recommended for Gloves and Bracers? I mean 44 Stamina doesnt sound so bad for me.
Because in most situations, mastery and dodge are better than stamina.

From what I've read, the only situation where a tank will stack stamina is if you're pushing certain heroic raid bosses, especially if you undergear the encounter (i.e. if you're trying something like heroic Nef without much heroic raid gear). But since most guilds progress through heroic modes fairly slowly and therefore gear up at an appropriate rate, this shouldn't be an issue unless you're either bringing in a new tank or you have absolutely terrible luck with drops.

Some of the top-end tanks still seem to be stacking stamina, and I have to admit that I'm not 100% sure which encounters this is recommended for. Some of them also just stick with more standard stat stacking, though, with maybe a few tweaks.

As always, your choice of gems/enchants/trinkets/spec/whatever else should be based on the content that you're doing. But for normal modes, at least, stacking mastery (and other avoidance stats to a much lesser extent) will offer you the most bang for your buck, since there aren't any mechanics I've encountered in normal raids that require or even favor stamina stacking.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/06/11, 1:33 PM   #309
Moophisto
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Warrior
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Túron View Post
Why is Heavy Savage Armor kit not recommended for Gloves and Bracers? I mean 44 Stamina doesnt sound so bad for me.
It can't be applied to bracers. And, while I personally do use the wrath enchant of 40 stam (as opposed to the Cata option of 50 dodge), its a fair decision either way. I do however go mastery on gloves - mastery is worth more than dodge to begin with, and the gloves have a 65 mastery option as well.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/13/11, 1:32 PM   #310
Irageat
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Blackmoore (EU)
I made some calculations about the choice between 2%armor / 1%SBV meta. I hope my layout is acceptable. Otherwise contact me how to improve it.
(stats - based on my gear - are modified due to beeing hit by a lv 88 mob)
Dodge 12,17%
Parry 13,40%
Armor 35957 -> 57,97%
Block 56.27%
Mastery 3008 -> 37,17%

Assuming a 100k hit the reduction would look like:

+2% armor = 41550
/2% armor = 42030

with increased SBV :
((0.1816) * 42030)+((0.5627*0.6283) * (42030*0.69))+((0,5627*0,3717) * (42030*0.38)) = 21226,21

without increased SBV :
((0.1816) * 41550)+((0.5627*0.6283) * (41550*0.70))+((0,5627*0,3717) * (41550*0.40)) = 21304,49

21304,49/21226,21 -> 0,369% increase


Same calculations with a 50k hit:

with increased SBV:
10612,86

without increased SBV:
10652.42

10652.42/10612.86 -> 0,373% increase

I left HtL and SB out of my calculations to keep the results simple. HtL and SB increase the value of 1%SBV-meta. Plus every additional point of mastery will raise the result of SBV-meta by a multiplicative value. I knew there would be some point you can get across to make 1%SBV more attractive. It seems that this point is easier to reach than I thought. Before somebody tries to find this point I wanted to share my calculations for corrections.

Last edited by Irageat : 04/13/11 at 6:36 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/14/11, 3:35 AM   #311
Merav
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Todeswache (EU)
Themios the Darkbringer [H]

When I do some research on BiS Items for Protection Warriors, the List for our Ranged Slot contains only 1 Item: The [Crossfire Carbine].. But why? I mean, its a neat weapon for that slot, but aren't there better alternatives?
I got [Themios the Darkbringer] from Atramedes Hero and by my Opinion, Research and Comparison it seems to be better for (Migitation) Tanking.

When comparing with [Crossfire Carbine] I am loosing some threat Stats (Expertise and Attack Power) but gain Dodge Rating (by Agility), Parry Rating (by Reforging), Mastery Rating and Stamina.
The Gain of Parry Rating by the Strength Attribute of [Crossfire Carbine] is so minimal, that it is easily cleared by Reforging Crit to Parry.
Or am I missing something?

I compared with the Wowhead Comparison Tool and with RatingBuster ingame, but I do not get why I shouldn't use this Bow..
Even askmrrobot, which seems to have fairly good researched facts in their back, suggest this Bow as BiS for us.. but it is the only source claiming [Themios the Darkbringer] as BiS.
Can you help me (and for others ofc) clear things up?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/14/11, 10:52 AM   #312
FBMWhite
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Yeah I'm also using the normal bow over crossfire carbine, the agility give me ~.3 dodge over ~.1 parry from the STR, both have mastery, crit and exp are both more or less undesirable so I've reforged to dodge. I keep the carbine for DPS and tank with the bow. Going heroic with the bow just increases the gap.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/19/11, 7:59 AM   #313
Probaton
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Hellfire (EU)
Obviously exp is a far more desirable threat stat than crit so if you're having problems with threat both that and the str make the carbine the superior choice. Obviously this doesn't invalidate any of your other arguments but I figured it might be worth mentioning before everyone goes haring off after agi rings, necks, weapons and cloaks.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/20/11, 9:29 AM   #314
Gashnik
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Ravenholdt (EU)
This can also be applied to the cloak dropped from Maloriak HC ([Cloak of Biting Chill]).

Although you lose some str for threat and some dodge for mitigation, you gain gain alot from the increased stamina, increased mastery, a fair amount of dodge that you get from agi (around 0.50% before DR), and the possibility to reforge the crit to parry. This is in comparison to items like [Wrap of the Great Turtle] and [Ironstar's Impenetrable Cover]

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 04/21/11, 1:35 AM   #315
Admired
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Altar of Storms
Originally Posted by Scorned View Post
Rotation:
Single Target Threat Priority:

Shield Slam > Revenge > Rend > Devastate

Note: A single Rend application is only worth using on a 30%-bleed debuffed single target if it ticks at least four times. Unbuffed, it must tick all six times. Never refresh an existing Rend -- always wait for it to run its full duration or else you lose the initial application tick.

Whenever possible, immediately follow up a Shield Slam with either a Revenge or Devastate. The Sword and Board talent is most effective when it procs the first GCD after a Shield Slam is used. If it fails to proc, use the remaining 2 GCDs to refresh debuffs/buffs as needed.

Applying three Sunder Armor stacks should typically be a high priority, as should be applying damage-reducing debuffs such as Demoralizing Shout and Thunder Clap. The exact order and urgency of applying debuffs isn't set in stone, and it's up to you to prioritize personal threat, group DPS, and reducing incoming damage depending on the circumstances.
After you listed the priority, I actually got quite confused with the explanations afterwards.
Let's say I wanted pure threat for a boss pull. Let's say I cared about pure threat for the first 10-15 seconds.

Would Rend still be a priority over Devastate? Devastate is immediate damage, and it applies Sunder Armor.
Is it ever optimal to reuse Heroic Throw even if I'm in melee range? You didn't mention this.

It is listed having 3 stacks of Sunder Armor is important, but is it more important than starting with Shield Slam?
Would Rend be used after the 3 stacks or before? Also, is using Taunt mid-charge considered a TPS increase?

Also, should I activate Shield Block before the pull right after I activate Shout / BRage?
I feel that I lose a lot of rage at the beginning form using Shield Block.

To conclude for OPTIMAL / MAXIMUM threat priority, I'm assuming this is what you mean:

Shield Slam (proc) > Revenge > Shield Slam (without proc) > Devastate (3 stacks) > Rend > Devastate

For me, it's:

SS (proc) > SS > Revenge > Devastate (3) > Rend > Devastate

Maybe both of what I just stated are wrong?
I mainly want optimal threat the beginning as I prioritize that by far over any type of damage mitigation.


AoE Threat Priority:

Rend > Thunder Clap > Shockwave > Revenge

This is assuming you have Blood and Thunder talent. Using T. Clap like clockwork will help your threat somewhat, especially by adding Thunderstruck charges for the next Shockwave, but the most important step is to keep Rend rolling on all your targets. It makes a dramatic difference in your sustained threat versus not having the talent. Remaining GCDs should be occupied prioritizing Revenge and then single-target abilities.
For the pull, would it be better to Thunder Clap and use Rend only when you're comfortable with threat?
I feel that a GCD can be problematic because you don't achieve full aggro within that small time frame.


Stamina ≥ Mastery > Parry ≥ Dodge

Threat Stat Priority:

Expertise > Hit >>> Strength > Crit

In a real-world situation nothing beats Expertise for producing consistent threat output. A string of parries against a fresh mob is what gets DPS killed. Hit provides similar benefits to Expertise once you defeat a target's dodge chance, and is of particular importance when using interrupts (since targets cannot parry or dodge while casting). Strength and crit, while not specifically bad for tank threat, are never worth gearing for.
Exactly, how important is Exp / Hit vs Mastery / Parry / Dodge?

I kinda want to make this my priority:

Mastery > Expertise > Hit > Parry > Dodge

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warriors

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Protection warrior: Stamina VS mitigation necropsis Class Mechanics 144 11/19/07 10:35 AM
[protection warrior] Can someone explain this ? juggernauth Class Mechanics 46 08/23/07 7:49 PM
Warrior Protection Talents - 2.1 HiroCT Class Mechanics 11 04/18/07 11:38 AM
Protection Warrior in Arena Alexmeria2 Public Discussion 35 02/21/07 6:33 PM