[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 32

Runtime · 08/16/11, 11:25 AM

That is a possibility but I find that I have a 70%+ enrage uptime so more often than not, when I need it I can use it.

Angeltsud · 08/16/11, 11:47 AM

When you use Reck, be sure to have SB up, so you're sure to avoid/mitigate all the incoming damage. There is a 2s gap but if you die due to that you have either bad healers or use it at the worst time ever.

Nimchip · 08/16/11, 7:12 PM

Anyone have Reforge Lite working ? Even after extremely high Mastery stat weights it still reforges it to dodge for some reason. I'm using Kahalm's spreadsheet in order to keep dodge and parry on acceptable levels but I'm thinking it's best if I reforge by myself like before.

Agar · 08/16/11, 8:09 PM

Originally Posted by ck1

you should take into account that thunder clap could miss and you have to renew rend manually

Your rend will be refreshed whether or not your thunderclap hits your target, if you take into account that the comment was assuming Blood and Thunder was taken.

• Scorned · 08/17/11, 4:16 PM

ATTENTION FORUM MEMBERS:

-Threat
-Threat generation for all tanks has been increased to 500%, up from 300%. This applies to warriors in Defensive Stance, death knights in Blood Presence, druids in Bear Form, and paladins with Righteous Fury.

-Vengeance should no longer be generated when damage is fully absorbed by damage shields. When the shield breaks from damage or damage is partially absorbed, the amount of Vengeance generated is equal to the full amount of damage taken (including the damage absorbed.)

That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.

The above quotes by Ghostcrawler are everything we know about the current and upcoming warrior tank changes. Please refrain from idle speculation concerning the specifics. We don't know what's coming, it's doubtful that the Blizzard devs have any changes finalized, and these forums are simply not the place to state your wishlist. Once there are concrete changes in play, feel free to add constructive comments which relate to theorycraft.

Frustrate · 08/19/11, 4:44 AM

With threat modifiers scaling up to 500% now. Would it be worth while taking points out of Deep woods and possibly cruelty for more survival talents? Possibly Impending Victory or Safeguard. The only possible downfall would be loss of dps since from my experience from raiding after the hotfix is that threat is pretty concrete after about 5 seconds.

I'm fine with dropping Cruelty but dropping Deep wounds makes me iffy. Gonna try a spec w/o deep wounds later in the week and see how it goes.

Muspel · 08/19/11, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Frustrate

With threat modifiers scaling up to 500% now. Would it be worth while taking points out of Deep woods and possibly cruelty for more survival talents? Possibly Impending Victory or Safeguard. The only possible downfall would be loss of dps since from my experience from raiding after the hotfix is that threat is pretty concrete after about 5 seconds.

I'm fine with dropping Cruelty but dropping Deep wounds makes me iffy. Gonna try a spec w/o deep wounds later in the week and see how it goes.

The survivability gains from Impending Victory are pretty miniscule. It's about 4k HPS in the last phase assuming that you're hit capped/expertise hard-capped, which you won't be. That also assumes that you can instantly react to the procs, which you probably can't because they're delayed.

It's probably closer to 1.5k-2k HPS when you take those things into account. And it'll lower your DPS substantially, because you'll be giving up threat talents and you'll be spamming Devastate in the last 20%. Honestly, every FL boss except heroic Shannox is a DPS race of some kind, so I personally wouldn't take the talent.

Safeguard isn't a bad choice for certain fights (especially since a threat reduction on the other tank won't cause as many issues now), but you can take that and Deep Wounds pretty easily.

swcarden · 08/19/11, 2:41 PM

I've updated the parry/dodge ratio graph. Since the last one, there have been a few minor changes (base dodge % changed, block enchant changed) so I updated my code and the corresponding graph. This one also extends to larger values of defensive stats now that we are in a new tier.

Runtime · 08/19/11, 6:19 PM

Im curious how acurate that graph is. If you look at this thread on the wow forums, Waniou comes to the conclusion that you want ~120 more parry than dodge at all gear levels. This is because the loss of stats from DR will nullify any benefit from Hold the Line beyond that point.

Hardbunny · 08/19/11, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Runtime

Im curious how acurate that graph is. If you look at this thread on the wow forums, Waniou comes to the conclusion that you want ~120 more parry than dodge at all gear levels. This is because the loss of stats from DR will nullify any benefit from Hold the Line beyond that point.

There is something I've been wondering but don't have the knowledge to calculate, and that is windwalk procs. I think the uptime is about 30% on single target if i'm not mistaken(with some kind of avg hit/expertise I guess). Is this taken into account at all? While having even more up time on multiple targets, I would assume that you should keep dodge at least a few percentages below parry?

swcarden · 08/20/11, 1:09 AM

Originally Posted by Runtime

Im curious how acurate that graph is. If you look at this thread on the wow forums, Waniou comes to the conclusion that you want ~120 more parry than dodge at all gear levels. This is because the loss of stats from DR will nullify any benefit from Hold the Line beyond that point.

I'm fairly confident in its accuracy. You can read my first post with the original graph to see how it's done.

The code that calculates damage reduction is nearly identical to Waniou's. When I used his spreadsheet with the same assumptions on boss swing time as mine, the results were identical. I also checked the statweights that mine produces against those from Kahalm's spreadsheet, and they were also very similar.

What I DO with the damage reduction measure is different than Waniou. For each fixed mastery level, I fix avoidance (dodge and parry rating) at several different levels, then I change the balance of dodge and parry in small increments and record the damage reduction at each step. The ratio at which the minimum is reached is then plotted. I can't help but feel that this is more elegant and simpler than Waniou's approach.

Merav · 08/20/11, 4:09 AM

Originally Posted by Frustrate

With threat modifiers scaling up to 500% now. Would it be worth while taking points out of Deep woods and possibly cruelty for more survival talents? Possibly Impending Victory or Safeguard. The only possible downfall would be loss of dps since from my experience from raiding after the hotfix is that threat is pretty concrete after about 5 seconds.

I'm fine with dropping Cruelty but dropping Deep wounds makes me iffy. Gonna try a spec w/o deep wounds later in the week and see how it goes.

Dropping DPS Talents is not the right way to go now in my opinion. You never needed them to gain and hold aggro with the "old" threat modifiers. You took them to increase your DPS to help the rest of your raid, because Tanks are providing more and more Damage.

Shan · 08/20/11, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by Runtime

Im curious how acurate that graph is. If you look at this thread on the wow forums, Waniou comes to the conclusion that you want ~120 more parry than dodge at all gear levels. This is because the loss of stats from DR will nullify any benefit from Hold the Line beyond that point.

I would say Waniou is just plain wrong. The relationship between parry, dodge, mastery and hold the line isn't simple enough to be able to reduce it to a simple rule that says "~120 more parry than dodge is the breakeven point". If you play around with with different inputs, you get vastly different breakeven points.

Iyona · 08/20/11, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hardbunny

There is something I've been wondering but don't have the knowledge to calculate, and that is windwalk procs. I think the uptime is about 30% on single target if i'm not mistaken(with some kind of avg hit/expertise I guess). Is this taken into account at all? While having even more up time on multiple targets, I would assume that you should keep dodge at least a few percentages below parry?

Windwalk shouldn't be taken into consideration, because it's not active the majority of the time. If you account for Windwalk-procs when balancing your passive avoidance ratings you'll have a slightly higher overall avoidance with Windwalk up but a slightly lower overall avoidance when it's not present. As long as it has a higher downtime than uptime it'd be a loss to do so.

If Windwalk had a 50% uptime - unless I'm terribly mistaken - then it could be considered neutral to account for it. If Windwalk is up the majority of the time, then it'd make sense to account for it.

If you discover that your Windwalk and trinket uses actually are up for the majority of an encounter (not all too unlikely on a boss with much downtime or swaps), then by all means, go ahead and change your reforges to maximize your toon for that encounter.

Frustrate · 08/21/11, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Muspel

The survivability gains from Impending Victory are pretty miniscule. It's about 4k HPS in the last phase assuming that you're hit capped/expertise hard-capped, which you won't be. That also assumes that you can instantly react to the procs, which you probably can't because they're delayed.

It's probably closer to 1.5k-2k HPS when you take those things into account. And it'll lower your DPS substantially, because you'll be giving up threat talents and you'll be spamming Devastate in the last 20%. Honestly, every FL boss except heroic Shannox is a DPS race of some kind, so I personally wouldn't take the talent.

Safeguard isn't a bad choice for certain fights (especially since a threat reduction on the other tank won't cause as many issues now), but you can take that and Deep Wounds pretty easily.

Yeah, pretty much summed up a night of me testing ImpV out, very lack luster. I am interested in Safeguard though. I'll probably end up just sticking with the bread and butter but change is nice every once in a while.