[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 33

Ragnar9000 · 08/24/11, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Hardbunny

There is something I've been wondering but don't have the knowledge to calculate, and that is windwalk procs. I think the uptime is about 30% on single target if i'm not mistaken(with some kind of avg hit/expertise I guess). Is this taken into account at all? While having even more up time on multiple targets, I would assume that you should keep dodge at least a few percentages below parry?

This question also applies to the Heroic version of Throngus's Finger. The choices are to ignore its proc, use its 1710 dodge proc, or to use its average uptime that is roughly 1710 x 12/60 = 342. While using a value of 1710 seems too extreme, it points out how far into diminishing returns its proc can be. Using its average of something a bit less than 342 dodge seems acceptable to me. Given how far out of whack its proc puts one. Not that I am complaining though. It pushes me close to un-hittable up to 20% of the time.

I have a question about Diminishing Returns and the 102.4 number. It is accurate to say that, the worst it can get, is that you lose 2.4% or your Dodge, Parry, and/or 5% boss miss chance? That when we balance Dodge and Parry to something near optimal, we are working with this 2.4%? It is it true that a poorly balanced tank uses the same 102.4 as the well balanced tank? Why doesn't the the poorly balanced tank use a higher number, like 103.0?

About Throngus's Finger. For Shannox and Beth'tilac, I've used the Vial of Stolen Memories trinket and the Moonwell Phial trinket for their on use Dodge towards the end of the fights. I usually Maintank Shannox without swaps. Would anyone recommend the still solid Finger or Porcelain Crab for those fights?

Muspel · 08/24/11, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Ragnar9000

I have a question about Diminishing Returns and the 102.4 number. It is accurate to say that, the worst it can get, is that you lose 2.4% or your Dodge, Parry, and/or 5% boss miss chance? That when we balance Dodge and Parry to something near optimal, we are working with this 2.4%? It is it true that a poorly balanced tank uses the same 102.4 as the well balanced tank? Why doesn't the the poorly balanced tank use a higher number, like 103.0?

102.4 is the amount of combined dodge/block/parry you need to never take unmitigated melee hits (except from Baleroc, since last I heard Blizzard gave him an extra 1% chance to hit).

The 2.4% isn't about diminishing returns. It's because enemies bypass .8% avoidance for every level they're above you, and since bosses count as level 88...

Ragnar9000 · 08/24/11, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Muspel

102.4 is the amount of combined dodge/block/parry you need to never take unmitigated melee hits (except from Baleroc, since last I heard Blizzard gave him an extra 1% chance to hit).

The 2.4% isn't about diminishing returns. It's because enemies bypass .8% avoidance for every level they're above you, and since bosses count as level 88...

So would it be accurate to say, the well balanced, dodge and parry wise tank, will have an easier time reaching the 102.4 mark, as they are more efficiently climbing to that mark? That their combined dodge and parry cover more ground?

Rynok · 08/24/11, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ragnar9000

So would it be accurate to say, the well balanced, dodge and parry wise tank, will have an easier time reaching the 102.4 mark, as they are more efficiently climbing to that mark? That their combined dodge and parry cover more ground?

Not exactly. Until reaching the Mastery CTC (when Mastery no longer adds straight block, and affects only Critical Block), Mastery is preferred over Parry and Dodge. You still want to pick up Parry and Dodge (attempting to keep them fairly even due to DR, with Parry perhaps slightly ahead of Dodge on account of Hold the Line procs), but until CTC Mastery is the more potent stat due to the fact that Mastery does not suffer from DR.

Once you reach CTC, however, Parry and Dodge become just as valuable (and perhaps more valuable; there is currently a debate raging in the Warrior Simple Q&A thread over this very subject) as Mastery, and so begin to take more precedence in gearing.

Probaton · 08/25/11, 5:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ragnar9000

So would it be accurate to say, the well balanced, dodge and parry wise tank, will have an easier time reaching the 102.4 mark, as they are more efficiently climbing to that mark? That their combined dodge and parry cover more ground?

More to the point: yes exactly. As long as you are prioritizing Master ahead of both Parry and Dodge a tank that balances the latter two correctly will have an easier time reaching full CTC than a tank who is stacking one of the two (once again, after Mastery) because he will be gaining more % per rating due to less diminishing returns.

Shan · 08/25/11, 8:09 AM

Originally Posted by Shan

According to my spreadsheet, which was made to calculate the relative worth of parry/dodge/mastery including all factors that come into play, mastery past 100% CTC is quite a bit worse than parry and dodge. It's not close, not even in unrealistic scenarios stacked heavily in favor of the theory that mastery can still be better than dodge/parry past the CTC.

Turns out that there was probably an error in the spreadsheet so this bit is no longer valid. The error was in the SB crit bonus formula.

So I redid it using COMBINED_AVOIDANCE% - 75% as the Shield Block crit block formula and that changes a lot. At 2517 dodge, 3031 parry and 4748 mastery rating, the value of these ratings is nearly identical. So one is as good as the other, which means mastery should generally be preferable (unless specific boss mechanics make avoidance more valuable).

At least if that formula is still correct, if not the quoted part will still be valid. I'll have to do some in-game tests.

Furred · 08/25/11, 9:26 AM

And when im playing Night Elf my 'unhitable' is 100.4%?
PS. Mastery is always better (imo) cause its effect is doubled. Mastery still affect on Block and Critical block even after 102.4%

Muspel · 08/25/11, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by Furred

And when im playing Night Elf my 'unhitable' is 100.4%?
PS. Mastery is always better (imo) cause its effect is doubled. Mastery still affect on Block and Critical block even after 102.4%

Your unhittable is still 102.4%, it's just that instead of adding 5% miss to dodge/block/parry, you add 7%.

And mastery's effect ISN'T doubled after 102.4, because you will ALWAYS dodge, block, or parry an attack (or have it miss you). Increased block chance does absolutely nothing at that point, so the only benefit you gain past the block cap is critical block chance.

Stfuppercut · 08/25/11, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Muspel

And mastery's effect ISN'T doubled after 102.4, because you will ALWAYS dodge, block, or parry an attack (or have it miss you). Increased block chance does absolutely nothing at that point, so the only benefit you gain past the block cap is critical block chance.

While this is mostly true, it is worth noting that with Shield Block active, any excess block gets converted into Critical Block chance.

Shan · 08/25/11, 11:10 AM

Edit: since I updated my spreadsheet to account for the "real" SB crit block bonus formula, the original post that was here no longer makes sense. The question is now if the formula is still correct, since it's from WotlK testing and it changed at least once since then. It used to be COMBINED_AVOIDANCE% - 50% which was overpowered. So it became COMBINED_AVOIDANCE% - 75% but as far as I know, nobody has retested it to see if you can still get more than 25% crit block from Shield Block.

Unfortunately I don't think I can yet get >100% passive CTC and one would need to be at least several percent higher than that for painless testing.

Ragnar9000 · 08/25/11, 2:48 PM

A question about Shield Block and on demand trinkets such as the Moonwell Phial. Use the trinket and then Shield Block. Or, Shield Block and then use the trinket? Does upping my CTC first make any difference? If my CTC is now plus 9 temporarily from the trinket, will that make me have more excess coverage converted into critical blocks?

Rynok · 08/25/11, 3:14 PM

Originally Posted by Ragnar9000

A question about Shield Block and on demand trinkets such as the Moonwell Phial. Use the trinket and then Shield Block. Or, Shield Block and then use the trinket? Does upping my CTC first make any difference? If my CTC is now plus 9 temporarily from the trinket, will that make me have more excess coverage converted into critical blocks?

It would theoretically be better to proc[Moonwell Phial] first, because Dodge is placed into the combat table before Block- and any excess Block will be converted into Critical Block. So to answer your question, yes, proccing the trinket first will give you more excess Block converted into Critical Block.

Rallik · 08/25/11, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by Shan

Edit: since I updated my spreadsheet to account for the "real" SB crit block bonus formula, the original post that was here no longer makes sense. The question is now if the formula is still correct, since it's from WotlK testing and it changed at least once since then. It used to be COMBINED_AVOIDANCE% - 50% which was overpowered. So it became COMBINED_AVOIDANCE% - 75% but as far as I know, nobody has retested it to see if you can still get more than 25% crit block from Shield Block.

Unfortunately I don't think I can yet get >100% passive CTC and one would need to be at least several percent higher than that for painless testing.

It's uncapped; you can get more than 25%. You can buy a moonwell chalice to give yourself a 1700 mastery proc to make it trivial to be well beyond 100% to test it.

Topinambour · 08/26/11, 1:51 AM

Don't know if this has been debated before or if it is relevant but here's what I found :

Shield wall is a 4% average damage reduction over the course of 2 minutes
The 4T11 Bonus is worth +2% average damage reduction.

I know this shouldn't be the way the 4T11 is looked at (as a temporary buff that is, and thus conditionned by the events and boss's skills.) but I can't help myself thinking that the 4T11 Tank is not that worth.

kahalm · 08/26/11, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kayytee

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Pretty sure that kahalam's spreadsheet is bugged.
Finally got my beth chest this week, and my ingame macro says I'm above 102.4, however according to the spreadsheets "hittable" page, I still have a 1.486% chance to get white hit w/o windwalker or trinkets.

the Spidersilk Spindle Heroic was bugged at the hittable section, but the rest seems ok, I think the macro
/run b=GetBlockChance() d=GetDodgeChance() p=GetParryChance() m=5 if UnitRace("player")=="Night Elf" then m=m+2 end a=m+d+p+b DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(a.."% Avoidance")
neglects diminishing returns
parry seems ok, block as well but dodge is slightly off, I had only 3.75% basedodge should work now as well

fixed Version online (V0.26) Spreadsheet

Keep in mind that at the moment in the Hittable it is using both the passive and aktive potion of trinkets, will be changed to count only the proc as soon as possible, just crossed my mind after looking at the values.
Hittables should work as expected.