[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 37

Demes · 10/11/11, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Runtime

One thing to keep in mind is that mastery loses more than half of its value when you hit the block cap and continues to get worse as your gear naturally improves.

Mastery doesn't lose over half of its value, as you get the full 3% crit block per point during Shield Block from excess mastery, and during other times, it gives the 1.5%. This still reduces damage taken quite significantly, though not as much as before. Mastery doesn't get worse as gear improves, it still has increasing returns after block cap.

Runtime · 10/11/11, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Demes

Mastery doesn't lose over half of its value, as you get the full 3% crit block per point during Shield Block from excess mastery, and during other times, it gives the 1.5%. This still reduces damage taken quite significantly, though not as much as before. Mastery doesn't get worse as gear improves, it still has increasing returns after block cap.

I was unaware that excess block got converted into crit block during shield block. I knew shield block itself did but not the excess from mastery. I still believe you should stack stam past the block cap. Avoidance will still decrease the value of mastery beyond the block cap as you will be blocking less and thus crit blocking less and mastery will lose it increasing returns for the same reason.

Rynok · 10/11/11, 4:38 PM

I would just like to point out, as a general note, that players who play primarily Night Elf Warriors will tend to find less value to pure avoidance over Critical Block when they sim because of the 2% racial bonus (an extra 2% chance to be missed free and clear).

However, the value of Mastery's increasing returns severely diminishes past CTC due to the fact that any increase in avoidance will push an equal amount of Block off the combat table completely. Reduced damage versus less damage over-all... I'd like to see some math explaining why that's a difficult choice to make.

Further, the point is not that suddenly avoidance becomes paramount at the expense of all else- increased Stamina and increased Mastery are still valuable to a Warrior past CTC- the point is only that these things are not as valuable as extra avoidance (primarily for the reason I just said, that any extra avoidance will push an equal amount of Block right off the combat table).

adrsol · 10/11/11, 6:51 PM

Totally agree with adding stam after the CTC cap, few logical reasons:
1- Threat buff will still be present in DS Raid, no need to add threat.
2- Bosses with big hit gimmicks will demand an extra cushion for healers to work with.
3- Tank DPS shouldn't be the difference between a wipe or a kill in early fights.
Keep the reforge into Master>Parry>Dodge, add stam replacing enchants/gems.

Faerrun · 10/12/11, 9:32 AM

Threat really shouldn't be a problem at this point in the game, considering the substantial buff they just added a few weeks ago. Maybe after hitting CTC cap, you may want to look into hit/expertise, but all previous posts have argued that either stamina or more mastery/avoidance is the way to go.

As such, mastery is your number one stat, so what Demes is saying by changing your gems around is to get as much mastery as possible, while still sticking to socket bonuses. Your goal is to reach the 102.4% cap before shield block, and having an obscene amount of mastery helps reach this fairly easily once you hit heroics.

My only question for the panel: Is there a definitive answer to what we should be doing with our gems/enchants/reforging once we hit the cap? Right now, I'm close to 7% over (Not sure exactly what the numbers are), and all of these posts seem like they are valid theories, but has anyone actually tried out either way and seen some results?

Runtime · 10/12/11, 10:58 AM

Continue to reforge the same way as before, but start swapping Mastery gems to stamina to keep yourself only slightly over the 102.4% cap.

Astharan · 10/12/11, 11:18 AM

I started playing Cata a few weeks ago, I had quit WoW back then when we started doing Heroic ICC due to personal stuff, and I'm still trying to adapt to all the changes. I understand, I really do, that Expertise isn't as valuable as it used to be, being no longer a survavility stat too... but it hurts my eyes to see it at the bottom of the priority list, being as I am, I don't like leaving things to chance, and as I see it, low Expertise could lead to a terribly awfull pull, just imagine a dodged Shield Slam with Shield Block up after a Charge and you standing there rageless, not acceptable. I'm aware of Missdirect and Tricks of the Trade, but relying on others to ensure a good pull is something I don't like, as a tank I want to be reliable. Then there's the DPS factor, it's far less important than survability but a solid tank should try to push his numbers. Anyway, this are just personal thoughts, and as I said I still need to adapt to Cata.
First post by the way, but I love the contents on this forums.

Muspel · 10/12/11, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by rogard

So your saying drop my Expertise to nothing basically just what I get from gear naturally. Wow that seems so foriegn to me since I feel like my threat gen suffers everytime I have tried that and croud control is difficult on large groups. That gives a larger chance to all my targets for me to miss them. I thought the 781 expertise was still critical with threat and control? I know hit has taken a dive fromthe old 8% for taunts but to toss out expertise to me seems so foriegn. Lucky enough I got my 4 peice bonus tonight so now I have some better numbers so I decided to pull all my red into Parry gems and Yellow into Mastery and my 3 blue into stam but from what you are saying I should combo these reds possible to parry mastery? I see your point on the lava walker that could really help since I feel slow sometimes when need to move out of things like in the Rag fight. Good point though on the retalent I just always thought a bonus to my damage to my sheild slams was good to have but really since I have such a small crit anyway it doesnt really matter just constant damge is more import in threat gen. Hmm I will have to see this now.

If you do your rotation properly, threat is completely trivial. If you're having aggro problems, then you're either doing something wrong, or your DPS outgear you by a huge margin.

rogard · 10/12/11, 11:24 AM

Well i droppped my stats on Expertise and forged into mastery, parry and dodge. I now have a 54 % block, 17,89% Parry and a 13.05% block. I ran a ZG to see how my threat would handle and I was shocked. It ran so smooth and the healer kept saying god your easy to heal. I even solo'd that last 15% on the panther boss when everyone went down which i would never have been able to do before. My raid team we have guys pulling easy 40k DPS so threat has never been a factor with my expertise but I will see tonight how it goes on our Rag attempts and see if this holds out. I was amazed though how much easier I survive though so the true test will be tonight.

Rynok · 10/12/11, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by rogard

Well i droppped my stats on Expertise and forged into mastery, parry and dodge. I now have a 54 % block, 17,89% Parry and a 13.05% block. I ran a ZG to see how my threat would handle and I was shocked. It ran so smooth and the healer kept saying god your easy to heal. I even solo'd that last 15% on the panther boss when everyone went down which i would never have been able to do before. My raid team we have guys pulling easy 40k DPS so threat has never been a factor with my expertise but I will see tonight how it goes on our Rag attempts and see if this holds out. I was amazed though how much easier I survive though so the true test will be tonight.

By "13.05% block," I'm assuming you merely mis-typed Dodge. If you're sitting at 17.89% Parry and 13.05% Dodge, I'd do some serious re-forging from Parry to Dodge until they're about even. You'll actually gain a few percent over-all avoidance. The goal is to keep Dodge and Parry roughly even (with Parry perhaps slightly ahead due to Hold the Line) while using Mastery to fill out the table.

Muspel · 10/12/11, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Rynok

By "13.05% block," I'm assuming you merely mis-typed Dodge. If you're sitting at 17.89% Parry and 13.05% Dodge, I'd do some serious re-forging from Parry to Dodge until they're about even. You'll actually gain a few percent over-all avoidance. The goal is to keep Dodge and Parry roughly even (with Parry perhaps slightly ahead due to Hold the Line) while using Mastery to fill out the table.

There's no way he'd gain a few percent from equalizing them. At most, you'd be looking at a difference of MAYBE .5% avoidance. Probably less.

The whole "equalizing parry and dodge" thing is a lot less significant than most people seem to believe.

Ragnar9000 · 10/12/11, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Astharan

I don't like leaving things to chance, and as I see it, low Expertise could lead to a terribly awfull pull, just imagine a dodged Shield Slam with Shield Block up after a Charge and you standing there rageless, not acceptable. I'm aware of Missdirect and Tricks of the Trade, but relying on others to ensure a good pull is something I don't like, as a tank I want to be reliable.

You can also throw your weapon during the charge, and/or pop retaliation or recklessness as you are moving towards the boss. And you could also put some responsibility on the dps to wait 3 to 5 seconds.

Muspel · 10/12/11, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by adrsol

BTW does anyone has the exact number at which dodge and parry start suffering from DR?

They always suffer from DR, no matter how much you have (unless you have zero rating, I guess, but that shouldn't ever happen). It's just that the DR curve gets harsher and harsher as you get more.

adrsol · 10/14/11, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Muspel

They always suffer from DR, no matter how much you have (unless you have zero rating, I guess, but that shouldn't ever happen). It's just that the DR curve gets harsher and harsher as you get more.

I'm more interested in the low values,, to see from which number we start suffering from the DR. Still there has to be a number under which every point of dodge or parry (independently) will give you a linear increment, unless DR is ruled by an equation (read curve, is the same thing) either exponential or parabolic, I'd think more the type of like y=e^x type. Has anyone run these numbers so far?

Muspel · 10/14/11, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by adrsol

I'm more interested in the low values,, to see from which number we start suffering from the DR. Still there has to be a number under which every point of dodge or parry (independently) will give you a linear increment, unless DR is ruled by an equation (read curve, is the same thing) either exponential or parabolic, I'd think more the type of like y=e^x type. Has anyone run these numbers so far?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "start suffering from DR". If you have any dodge or parry rating, at all, then you're losing avoidance to DR.

I assume you can find the formulas somewhere, since sites like chardev.org can calculate avoidance for you, but I've never been able to actually track them down.