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Old 12/02/11, 10:17 AM   #631
Armsaun
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
Arthas
Prot BiS gear would need to based on certain assumptions about what is best. CTC seems to be agreed as first priority for warriors. I see four different approaches that could be easily supported:

1) CTC>EH>extra parry/dodge to replace blocks>threat

2) CTC>EH>threat>extra parry/dodge to replace blocks

3) CTC>extra parry/dodge to replace blocks>EH>threat

4) CTC>threat>extra parry/dodge to replace blocks>EH

I think most raiding tanks will want to gear for 1) or 2), but certain fights would favor other styles (e.g. Baleroc).

Assuming CTC and EH are the two most important points, we will want a gear list that has more mastery, so we can socket out of mastery and into stamina. If getting more parry/dodge in our CTC is the goal, we want to gem/enchant for that - even if it means dropping mastery enchants for dodge enchants.


Any BiS list would need to explain what approach it is BiS for. I believe that the list from page 15 was CTC>EH, while trying to maintain a 1.3/1 ratio of parry/dodge.

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Old 12/02/11, 10:51 AM   #632
Runtime
Piston Honda
 
Troll Warrior
 
Hyjal
Vexryn has a good guide. Its mostly made for pallys but our gearing is very similar and we can adapt the gear for us. The method of this list is for most DR for each slot and not necessarily a guide to get ctc or gem/enchant it. The only thing I need to check is that if we can get enough CTC that we can use the stam trinket while maintaining block cap.

Vexryn's Tank Gear List (by slot) | Vexryn's Guides

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Old 12/02/11, 11:35 AM   #633
Rynok
Dancing Monkey
 
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Rynokism
Human Warrior
 
Non-US/EU Server
Originally Posted by Runtime View Post
The only thing I need to check is that if we can get enough CTC that we can use the stam trinket while maintaining block cap.
We were doing this is normal T12 gear, I see no reason why we cannot continue doing it in T13 / Heroic.

Tyráel: On the off chance that we don't suck at what we do, we should probably stop being so nice to people. They might get the wrong idea.
Rynok: You kicked someone from a PUG last week for sneezing in Vent without permission. How could anyone get the wrong idea about that?!


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Old 12/02/11, 11:50 AM   #634
Runtime
Piston Honda
 
Troll Warrior
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Rynok View Post
We were doing this is normal T12 gear, I see no reason why we cannot continue doing it in T13 / Heroic.
No we weren't. Pally's were but warriors weren't.

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Old 12/02/11, 12:26 PM   #635
Serivola
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Nathrezim (EU)
Not with normal T12 only but with heroic gear it is already possible...
Originally Posted by Serivola View Post
A BiS for option 1 may look like this: chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm

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Old 12/02/11, 2:14 PM   #636
Vexryn
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormscale
Originally Posted by Runtime View Post
Vexryn has a good guide. Its mostly made for pallys but our gearing is very similar and we can adapt the gear for us. The method of this list is for most DR for each slot and not necessarily a guide to get ctc or gem/enchant it. The only thing I need to check is that if we can get enough CTC that we can use the stam trinket while maintaining block cap.

Vexryn's Tank Gear List (by slot) | Vexryn's Guides

Thanks for noting my list Runtime!

Indeed, I ended out using a basic sorting algorithm of ilvl first, and then mastery > dodge/parry > expertise/hit, given that different tank classes place a slightly different value on whether to take higher ilvl (which implicitly means higher stamina and armor for EH) with weaker itemization or lower ilvl with better CTC.

As with warriors, we paladins are certainly gearing CTC > all right now. The primary issue comes down to Armsaun's post, which is where, after CTC, you rank EH vs avoidance vs threat (or in reality, I'd actually slightly distinguish raw stamina {for magic burst survival} vs classic EH {including armor}.

Through Firelands, I was generally prioritizing as:
CTC > Avoidance > EH > Raw stamina > Threat

Although I'll grant our guild wasn't on the bleeding edge of progression, where being undergeared for the content (implicit in world leading progression guilds) changes the priority to CTC > Raw stamina > EH > Avoidance > Threat, and arguably even Raw stamina > CTC > EH > Avoidance > Threat for some progression fights.

As we start into Dragon Soul, I'm shifting a bit to CTC > Avoidance > Raw Stamina > EH > Threat, as there is definitely more magic burst here so some raw stamina stacking may be helpful. But so far - at least given my 390-ish ilvl for the content - I'm finding this is quite sufficient to stay alive.

When we shift to heroic progression, though, where - if the normal mode fights are any indication - there will be some UGLY magic burst damage on some fights - I'm expecting to change priority to:
CTC > Raw stamina > EH > Avoidance > Threat

As my concerns are basically: #1 Be block-capped to smooth incoming physical damage; #2 Have a health pool sufficient to survive magic burst; and #3 Get some dodge/parries in there so my healers don't squish their mana. Obviously, detailed gearing decision priorities will still vary from fight to fight based on boss mechanics, though. I still maintain an Outfitter gear set for each boss in the raid, as virtually every fight I find a desire to swap around a few pieces of gear and/or some trinkets.

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Old 12/03/11, 12:15 AM   #637
Daem
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Frostmourne
Hi, can anyone confirm how the 4p bonus works?

Is it 20% damage reduction for 12 seconds, or 6 seconds?

Further, is the duration doubled on Ultraxion?

Cheers

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Old 12/03/11, 5:37 AM   #638
Tengenstein
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Azuremyst (EU)
Originally Posted by Eetabeetay View Post
Unless you're doing previous tier content, I wouldn't ever say survival is "assured." After CTC, I think that the survivability issue goes back to the same old EH arguments we had in ICC. Basically, there's no such thing as "enough" EH, or some magical threshold where you no longer gain survivability (or start gaining less) from additional EH.
Can we really consider a procced heal EH?

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Old 12/03/11, 6:06 AM   #639
ryL
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Durotan (EU)
Originally Posted by Daem View Post
Hi, can anyone confirm how the 4p bonus works?

Is it 20% damage reduction for 12 seconds, or 6 seconds?

Further, is the duration doubled on Ultraxion?

Cheers
It is 20% reduction for 12 seconds.
I dont know for Ultraxion, but i asume its 24 seconds there. Going to check it out next week.

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Old 12/03/11, 10:00 AM   #640
Otori
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Azralon
Any reason why we're still talking about EH vs raw stamina? They seem the same to me in Cata, because the other component, armor, can no longer be geared for, with the removal of the bonus armor stat, armor trinkets and certain enchanting choices. So since armor is removed from the equation, there's no point in distinguishing both.

So the whole tanking dilemma is CTC, pure avoidance and stamina. There can be an argument made to both, but at first I'm inclined for raw stamina. It could be just an unlucky, small log sample (specially considering how few fights break the 5 min mark), but looking at my guild's logs, the only major mechanic that can be avoided is Sunder Armor from Warmaster Blackhorn. For the rest of the fights, melee is 3rd to 4th source of damage, in most cases and bosses abilites are unavoidable damage.

I'm also specifically looking at the souldrinker, so stacking stamina is a DPS increase;

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Old 12/04/11, 12:16 AM   #641
Rynok
Dancing Monkey
 
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Rynokism
Human Warrior
 
Non-US/EU Server
Priot to CTC, avoidance (read: mastery) is king. Past CTC, mastery still has value, but Stamina has more. I'd link the discussions stating this, but we've been discussing this for so long that I don't believe it necessary.

Tyráel: On the off chance that we don't suck at what we do, we should probably stop being so nice to people. They might get the wrong idea.
Rynok: You kicked someone from a PUG last week for sneezing in Vent without permission. How could anyone get the wrong idea about that?!


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Old 12/06/11, 4:32 AM   #642
Armsaun
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Otori View Post
Any reason why we're still talking about EH vs raw stamina? They seem the same to me in Cata, because the other component, armor, can no longer be geared for, with the removal of the bonus armor stat, armor trinkets and certain enchanting choices. So since armor is removed from the equation, there's no point in distinguishing both.
I personally say EH just in case a new patch includes armor in some amount that it would be worth taking over stamina. Bedrock Talisman was poorly itemized and the amount of armor on it was pitiful. I can't remember the other trinkets with armor on them, but I'm sure they were just as bad.

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Old 12/07/11, 3:53 AM   #643
Maderthaner
Glass Joe
 
Maderthaner's Avatar
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Originally Posted by Rynok View Post
Priot to CTC, avoidance (read: mastery) is king. Past CTC, mastery still has value, but Stamina has more. I'd link the discussions stating this, but we've been discussing this for so long that I don't believe it necessary.
I totally agree with you. The critical Block value should not be underestimated and still, mastery has not the effekt of diminishing returns. However, survivability (raw stamina) really helps in 4.3 encounters, since there is massive burst dmg! (those stomps, hagaras attack, those enraged adds and impale - to name a few)

Even if the DS normal mode doesn't seem to have that long fight's with one particular boss (so that one really would feel the DR effect), the heroic modus seems to have much longer fights! Take the hitpoints from Warlord Zon'ozz, around 70M normal to 260M HC - hxxp://eu.battle.net/wow/en/zone/dragon-soul/warlord-zonozz

I really don't know about simcraft whatsoever, but I saw a BiS proposal here (unfortunately in german - but maybe you find your way via the linked items): ---> hxxp://wow.mmozone.de/wow-guides/klassenguides/schutz-krieger/#bis-items

This proposal really looks good (at first sight) and is obviously more precise, than the wowbestinslot.com suggestion. There is no hint how they calculated their gear.

To name a few points:
  • Leg discussion. The 4p prot-warrior setbonus is really strong, because there is massive group dmg. The setbonus should really help on this. I guess it should at least be discussed whether to wear the set-legs or not. Some guides even suggest to wear 5p of the set because there are no useful HC legs. The BiS list above suggests to wear the crafted Legplates instead of the set legs.
  • Weapon discussion. There should be a discussion about the Weapon. Using souldrinker or a weapon with stats on it. A important questions is how souldrinker performs. Ragnaros performance of normal mode version souldrinker: hxxp://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-jsooqv6bxjs0chdx/details/6/ . However, this performance scales with the hitpoints. And my warrior lacks of hp... CTC cap...
  • Trinket discussion. Now that we have options between avoidance and stamina trinkets.
  • Gem discussion. I guess, as long as your are at the CTC-cap you should gem Stamina until you feel save. The rest should go into parry/dodge!
wow head is really lagging right now, I probably update this with itemlinks later...

Please don't take this as a guide, more as my opinion - for now. I'm open for feedback, so let me know, what you think!


FYI: If you wonder, why you can' click the links. I changed all the http to hxxp *link abuse, forum rules...*

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Old 12/07/11, 6:33 AM   #644
Armsaun
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
Arthas
As far as I can tell, there are 4 arguable upgrades once we have 4 of our T13 items. The Shoulders could be replaced with the Brackenshell Shoulderplates from Morchok, the gloves with H T12 gloves, the head with Helm of Blazing Glory from H Baleroc, and the legs with Foundations of Courage from blacksmithing. Given that the gloves and head would be replaced with gear from last tier, I'd say choose between the shoulders and legs.

Of course, getting your 4-piece set comes first, so if you get the opportunity, take legs (or shoulders) to finish your set.

Last edited by Armsaun : 12/07/11 at 6:35 AM. Reason: Omission

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Old 12/07/11, 2:14 PM   #645
Bruisefest
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Tichondrius
Question. Due to the large amounts of raid damage, is it worth nerfing one's own gear (391->384) if necessary to pick up the 4 piece? I.E. Are the 7 ilvls on 1-2 pieces of gear that important for individual tank survivability or if the 4p would be more beneficial to the raid for fights such as H Morch, H Warlord, bad combos on H Yorshaj, etc. Where there are predictably large spikes in raid damage that the 12 second 20% DR CD could smooth out.

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