[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 53

Demes · 02/08/12, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Armsaun

Look at these two parts.

Shield Block's duration is 20 seconds on Ultraxion. It looks like SB was not refreshed in time, so it likely fell off.

Ah yes, Interesting. That's probably because our logger was inside Heroic Will during the time Shield Block was refreshed.

[21:19:17.146] Karz afflicted by Heroic Will from Karz
[21:19:17.146] Karz casts Heroic Will
[21:19:18.858] Karz's Heroic Will fades from Karz

Dkbel · 02/25/12, 8:55 AM

I would like to bring up the subject on re-applying rend for single target. Now, keeping rend on the target is crucial for threat generation, but should I re-apply with Thunder Clap or just simply another Rend.
Rend with my gear instant hits for 773.7 average damage and Thunder Clap hits for 1571.5 average.
Thunder Clap costs 20 and Rend 10, now,
One rend = 773.7, Two rends = 1547.4 = 20 rage
One thunder clap = 1571.5 = 20 rage

In conclusion, Thunder Clap > Rend, though it costs more rage, so it's only viable if you're not currently rage starved.

This is my first theory so please correct me if I am wrong.

Armsaun · 02/25/12, 5:22 PM

From what I understand, rend is always worth applying if you will get its full duration. Thunder Clap is ideally used just before the last tick of rend, but Shield Slam has a higher priority for dps/threat. Essentially, with ~1.5 seconds left on Rend, check if SS will be up. If SS will be up, use TC. If SS will not be up, use something else, then TC on the last tick.

If your rend actually falls off though, make sure to reapply it (after checking SS).

Probaton · 02/27/12, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by Armsaun

From what I understand, rend is always worth applying if you will get its full duration.

This is obviously not relevant if you're refreshing your Rend through B'nT. Yes, TC is more expensive than Rend but you're not paying for the increased Rend duration, it's a free side-effect. As such you can refresh Rend whenever you want with TC without a dps loss. So basically just TC whenever you have a gcd to spare (you'll probably want to do that a lot anyway because of the atk spd debuff), try to do it before your Rend runs out and you should be fine.

Kurathikai · 02/27/12, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by Probaton

This is obviously not relevant if you're refreshing your Rend through B'nT. Yes, TC is more expensive than Rend but you're not paying for the increased Rend duration, it's a free side-effect. As such you can refresh Rend whenever you want with TC without a dps loss. So basically just TC whenever you have a gcd to spare (you'll probably want to do that a lot anyway because of the atk spd debuff), try to do it before your Rend runs out and you should be fine.

Thunder Clap can also not be dodged or parried, so that's pretty cool. Nothing like a bad string of those wasting time. I have no problem at all refreshing Rend. In AoE situations and specced into Blood and Thunder it's absolutely amazing, and even single target with today's de-emphasis on hit and expertise, I'll take a very likely Rend refresh with a bit of damage over a string-dodged Rend attack.

The Cheat · 02/29/12, 7:11 PM

BnT refreshing Rend is almost always what I've done right as Rend is about to fade. It's been more annoying to do lately since 4.3 due to Rend no longer applying/refreshing on targets that Thunderclap misses though, but that's just the nature of RNG.

I did post a bug report thread after 4.3 dropped regarding BnT's new bug, but after two minor patches it hasn't been fixed (or it's "intended" and they've said nothing). It really feels like Blizzard is in apathy mode right now.

EDIT: For those interested about the Blood and Thunder bug, I've got some logs to display what it was doing compared to how it's acting now. It normally doesn't create problems, but we all know RNG will do otherwise.

Tier 11 Example (Source: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis)

[21:41:50.543] Thecheat casts Thunder Clap
[21:41:50.543] Thecheat Thunder Clap Vile Swill Miss
[21:41:50.693] Vile Swill's Thunder Clap is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:50.693] Vile Swill's Thunder Clap is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:50.693] Vile Swill's Thunder Clap is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:50.693] Vile Swill's Thunder Clap is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:50.929] Thecheat Thunder Clap Vile Swill 5428
[21:41:50.929] Thecheat Thunder Clap Vile Swill 5291
[21:41:50.929] Thecheat Thunder Clap Vile Swill 5291
[21:41:50.929] Thecheat Thunder Clap Vile Swill 5359
[21:41:51.122] Vile Swill's Rend is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:51.122] Vile Swill's Rend is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:51.122] Vile Swill's Rend is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:51.122] Vile Swill's Rend is refreshed by Thecheat
[21:41:51.122] Vile Swill's Rend is refreshed by Thecheat

Notice only 4 targets take damage (the 5th was a miss), but 5 Vile Swills still get Rend refreshed regardless.

Tier 12 Example (Source: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis)

[20:24:10.443] Thecheat casts Thunder Clap
[20:24:10.443] Thecheat Thunder Clap Ragnaros Miss
[20:24:11.113] Ragnaros's Rend is refreshed by Thecheat

Only one target in this scenario, but that consequently makes this much easier to see. Rend refreshes as expected.

Tier 13 Example (Source: ]World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

[20:22:03.679] Thecheat casts Thunder Clap
[20:22:03.679] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One Miss
[20:22:03.679] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One Miss
[20:22:03.893] Thecheat Thunder Clap Yor'sahj the Unsleeping 5792
[20:22:03.893] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5401
[20:22:03.893] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One *10800*
[20:22:03.893] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5468
[20:22:03.893] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5400
[20:22:03.907] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5400
[20:22:03.907] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5400
[20:22:03.907] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5400
[20:22:03.907] Thecheat Thunder Clap Mana Void 5552
[20:22:03.907] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5401
[20:22:03.907] Thecheat Thunder Clap Forgotten One 5401
[20:22:04.219] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.219] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.219] Mana Void afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.219] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.219] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.219] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.219] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.219] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.236] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.236] Forgotten One afflicted by Rend from Thecheat
[20:22:04.236] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping's Rend is refreshed by Thecheat

Heavy AoE situation, but still easy to see behavior. Thunder Clap targets 13, hits 11, and only 11 get/refresh Rend. This behavior is changed from the way it has worked the entire expansion, thus leading me to conclude it's bugged. Come to think of it, I should probably bump my bug report post and include these logs.

kopcap · 03/01/12, 6:08 AM

More likely it was bugged before and fixed now.

Armsaun · 03/05/12, 2:11 AM

Having that "bug" fixed seems like a good long-term fix. Our threat won't be artificially high just because we can spread rend even when our TC misses. If threat becomes an issue again, we'll just reforge into hit/expertise. For those who don't need the help, keep min/maxing your avoidance.

Rynok · 03/14/12, 2:40 PM

The talent was never bugged, it was simply one of those changes that slipped under the radar in 4.3. It was an official change. Both iterations (refreshing / applying Rend even if TC missed vs. only applying / refreshing Rend if TC hit) are / were working as intended.

Armsaun · 03/16/12, 4:53 AM

I recently acquired a H Hand of Morchok. I don't have numbers for the souldrinker proc, but I'm inclined to do some testing to see which is better in certain situations.

My theory is that the proc causes lots of overheals, and the Hand should be used for added stam/pushing tank's dps higher. Is the proc on Souldrinker really good enough to surpass a higher ilvl weapon on dps and avoidance stats?

Muspel · 03/16/12, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Armsaun

I recently acquired a H Hand of Morchok. I don't have numbers for the souldrinker proc, but I'm inclined to do some testing to see which is better in certain situations.

My theory is that the proc causes lots of overheals, and the Hand should be used for added stam/pushing tank's dps higher. Is the proc on Souldrinker really good enough to surpass a higher ilvl weapon on dps and avoidance stats?

In terms of raw survivability, Hand of Morchok is better (the extra stamina from HoM is EH, which is superior to an unreliable RNG heal).

In terms of damage output, Souldrinker is better. I'm not sure of the exact DPS increase that the proc gives, but it is a substantial boost (Mew is saying it's worth about 500 DPS). If your raid is running into issues with DPS checks more often than tank deaths, then I'd go with the Souldrinker. Personally, I've found that for most encounters, DPS was more of an issue than tank deaths, but that may vary depending on your raid.

Also, keep in mind that you'll need less and less EH as the DS nerf continues to stack up, which makes HoM less appealing.

Armsaun · 03/19/12, 1:04 AM

I also found that, even on unlucky days, SD was higher dps than heroic HoM. The added weapon damage doesn't transfer through most of our attacks, so even at 1/3 of the average proc chance, SD wins.

The EH increase might also be a distraction, since even one proc from SD on the way down will make SD better. We could model that with a burst time analysis, but I don't know how useful such an analysis would be.

Muspel · 03/19/12, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Armsaun

The EH increase might also be a distraction, since even one proc from SD on the way down will make SD better. We could model that with a burst time analysis, but I don't know how useful such an analysis would be.

Again, it depends on what you need. Souldrinker's proc offers more TTL, while the extra stamina from HoM is more EH.

Using Souldrinker for the survivability benefits in Dragon Soul is a bad idea, honestly. Bosses test our EH far more than our overall damage taken/healing... when was the last time that you were slowly worn down from full HP to dead? It wasn't even terribly common in Tier 11, and increased healer mana regeneration has made it a complete nonissue.

kopcap · 03/24/12, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by Muspel

Using Souldrinker for the survivability benefits in Dragon Soul is a bad idea, honestly.

Sorry, this is just plain wrong. Souldrinker is a great weapon. Probably second best prot warrior item the entire expansion after the Mirror.

Wishing Well · 03/24/12, 8:58 PM

Got conversation with guys from my guild about life after ctc. I was sure that stamina is a king, my opponent told me that mastery is superior, due to further reducing spikes on me, so I went to chardev, planned protwarrior with BiS gear and 've done lil' maths.

I found that avoidance after ctc is much better to stack, than stamina or mastery. Here is the link to the table. Correct me if I'm wrong.

P.S.: I'm counting only physical avoidable damage.