[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 7

Stonestrike · 12/29/10, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Stonestrike

There are however options in this list due to stuff like how much hit/expertise you personally need in order to keep threat, this isn't ICC.

Originally Posted by Çeen

[Ring of the Battle Anthem] should be way over [Bile-O-Tron Nut]. Expertise is not necessary at the moment. Even if you reforge the 111 expertise into ~45 parry, I would prefer [Ring of the Battle Anthem].

I agree with you, and that's why the ring is mentioned first. However you should read.

Foamin · 12/29/10, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by Stonestrike

Head: [Helm of the Proud]
Neck: [Carrier Wave Pendant]
Shoulders: [Earthshape Pauldrons]
Cloak: [Billowing Cape]
Chest: [Beauty's Plate]
Bracers: [Alpha Bracers] OR [Armguards of Unearthly Light]
Gloves: [Fingers of Light]
Waist: [Girdle of the Mountains]
Pants: [Triton Legplates]
Boots: [Darksky Treads]
Ring 1: [Phosphorescent Ring] OR [Felsen's Ring of Resolve]
Ring 2: [Umbriss Band] OR [Ring of Three Lights]
Trinket 1: [Leaden Despair]
Trinket 2: [Porcelain Crab] OR [Throngus's Finger]
Weapon: [Cookie's Tenderizer] OR [Elementium Fang]
Shield: [Shield of the Four Grey Towers]
Ranged: [Sky Piercer] OR [Volatile Thunderstick]

Those boots do not exist in game. Possible replacement could be [Baron Silverlaine's Greaves].

Tharamis · 12/30/10, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Goatbert

I don't have any numbers to back it up but once vengeance is stacked and so long as a rotation is maintained, I feel like I'm generating enough threat with 4.3% hit and 6 expertise (all of it from gear). I also feel like after regemming and reforging for mastery (stam mastery gems in most cases) that I'm much easier to heal. Yes, you'll need to have your dps wait a couple seconds before opening up at the start of a fight in case of a parry/dodge/miss, but you'll be easier to heal in the long run and your overall threat should be fine.

So far the only problem I am seeing from stacking survivability over hit is that in heroics or 10 mans, my shield bash is basically a crap shoot. That is fine in a 25 man where there are plenty of others, but on the first boss in Heroic Shadowfang or Halfus I feel useless. I should be pulling much more weight, instead I am relegated to just trying to help a touch on interrupts since I can't be relied upon.

Basically, I just want a +8% hit to shield bash glyph and I'll be peachie-keen.

Shan · 12/30/10, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tharamis

Basically, I just want a +8% hit to shield bash glyph and I'll be peachie-keen.

I don't think we can expect anything that will make hit or expertise even less useful.

evilsopure · 12/30/10, 12:11 PM

My philosophy and approach is as follows, but I invite any criticism:

From a raiding standpoint, since stamina on gear has been normalized, there's no point to stacking stamina beyond a certain point, and tanks will get automatic bonus health from their chosen tree: Warrior Sentinel, Paladin Touched by the Light, DK Veteran of the Third War, (and Druid Bear Form of course).

Where applicable, I choose to enchant/gem for Mastery>Parry>Dodge as long as Stamina is first brought up to a comfortable number, which I'm seeing to be about 145-150K unbuffed or approx 175-180K raid buffed. Where ever I'm unable to enchant for Mastery>Parry>Dodge, only then would I opt for stamina/armour (e.g. +75sta chest or +250arm cloak).

Health pools way beyond 180K raid buffed seem to be inconsistent with the new Cata healing paradigm of mana conservation. Extra large health pools require extra large amounts of mana to upkeep, earning you the ire of your healers.

I would also start replacing pure STA and MAST+STA gems with either pure MAST or MAST+PARRY gems.

Lastly, I reforge all expertise and hit to Mastery>Parry>Dodge since Taunt can't miss and threat is currently a non-issue if you're hitting the right buttons to begin with. The only downside to that is on interrupt-heavy fights where you're responsible for all or most of the interrupts. Even so, my interrupts rarely ever miss.

I've also personally dropped Vigilance and put points in Impending Victory with [Glyph of Victory Rush] for heals that land for 20-40K during execute phase when everyone's already hanging on by a thread.

Kesslar · 12/30/10, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by evilsopure

My philosophy and approach is as follows, but I invite any criticism:

From a raiding standpoint, since stamina on gear has been normalized, there's no point to stacking stamina beyond a certain point, and tanks will get automatic bonus health from their chosen tree: Warrior Sentinel, Paladin Touched by the Light, DK Veteran of the Third War, (and Druid Bear Form of course).

Where applicable, I choose to enchant/gem for Mastery>Parry>Dodge as long as Stamina is first brought up to a comfortable number, which I'm seeing to be about 145-150K unbuffed or approx 175-180K raid buffed. Where ever I'm unable to enchant for Mastery>Parry>Dodge, only then would I opt for stamina/armour (e.g. +75sta chest or +250arm cloak).

Health pools way beyond 180K raid buffed seem to be inconsistent with the new Cata healing paradigm of mana conservation. Extra large health pools require extra large amounts of mana to upkeep, earning you the ire of your healers.

I would also start replacing pure STA and MAST+STA gems with either pure MAST or MAST+PARRY gems.

Lastly, I reforge all expertise and hit to Mastery>Parry>Dodge since Taunt can't miss and threat is currently a non-issue if you're hitting the right buttons to begin with. The only downside to that is on interrupt-heavy fights where you're responsible for all or most of the interrupts. Even so, my interrupts rarely ever miss.

I've also personally dropped Vigilance and put points in Impending Victory with [Glyph of Victory Rush] for heals that land for 20-40K during execute phase when everyone's already hanging on by a thread.

I disagree with dropping vigilance, but I do like impending victory for fights such as Chimaeron etc. Vigilance I noticed helps out quite a bit with halfus when I put it on the offtank and kept vengeance up pretty much consistantly, I noticed your specced into safeguard, for what purpose would you use that for raids? I certainly can understand the use of intervene for heroics, but just constructive criticism all makes us better players.

Anduryondon · 12/30/10, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kesslar

I disagree with dropping vigilance, but I do like impending victory for fights such as Chimaeron etc.

Isn't it useless for Chimaeron because you can't get healed (even by yourself) when he's <20% (does not change your argument of course, just wanted to point it out)?

Booi · 12/31/10, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

Isn't it useless for Chimaeron because you can't get healed (even by yourself) when he's <20% (does not change your argument of course, just wanted to point it out)?

Fun tip for chim: Heart of Thunder - Item - World of Warcraft or any other battlemaster trinket. Should buy you a free "life" in the last phase.

Vistana · 12/31/10, 3:45 AM

Originally Posted by Kesslar

I noticed your specced into safeguard, for what purpose would you use that for raids? I certainly can understand the use of intervene for heroics, but just constructive criticism all makes us better players.

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but Safeguard is a powerful external cooldown that has now gotten its usability buffed dramatically by the removal of the minimum range. But on the other hand, it can easily get you gibbed if you're also tanking something yourself. I personally use it in my kiting spec, and it can be useful in a handful of situations:
> Ascendant Council's Flame Torrent after the Aegis of Flame is cast and his stacking buff gets too high
> Cho'gall's Flame Order can hit a tank hard, and taking a hit of these can save a lot of damage, especially if you do it on the first hit, so Safeguard's buff carries over the next two (if you're lucky).
> Found it incredibly useful in Phase 2 of Maloriak as the kiter, the last two adds have an annoying fixate and if it fixates a healer, it can save their life or at least prevent a fair bit of it.
> And in general if a threat hungry melee DPS decides to take the lead for whatever reason, on the harder hitting bosses especially, a quick intervene and their life may be saved.

But still, that's only a handful of scenario's where I'd personally use it to full.

Edit: Typo.

Influxreptile · 12/31/10, 3:56 AM

Originally Posted by Kesslar

I disagree with dropping vigilance, but I do like impending victory for fights such as Chimaeron etc. Vigilance I noticed helps out quite a bit with halfus when I put it on the offtank and kept vengeance up pretty much consistantly, I noticed your specced into safeguard, for what purpose would you use that for raids? I certainly can understand the use of intervene for heroics, but just constructive criticism all makes us better players.

I'd say it's never a waste to have an additional cooldown on your MT which is usable every 30 seconds. There are enough situations where the second tank takes no/small damage compared to the MT (Council last phase, certain Nefarian situations, Baradin hold, certain time-windows at Maloriak and Defense system) and as everyone is pointing out mana conservation is key to quite a few fights.

Threat is pretty much a non-issue after the first 10-15 seconds so losing a small portion of that in order to get a 20% damage reduction 20% of the time (maximum potential, 4% overall reduction) + having a hit redirected to another tank (granting the healers more breathing room). I wouldn't say it's a wasted talent.

EDIT: Got beaten to it. This might be an irrelevant post now.

Vistana · 12/31/10, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by Influxreptile

I'd say it's never a waste to have an additional cooldown on your MT which is usable every 30 seconds. There are enough situations where the second tank takes no/small damage compared to the MT (Council last phase, certain Nefarian situations, Baradin hold, certain time-windows at Maloriak and Defense system) and as everyone is pointing out mana conservation is key to quite a few fights.

Threat is pretty much a non-issue after the first 10-15 seconds so losing a small portion of that in order to get a 20% damage reduction 20% of the time (maximum potential, 4% overall reduction) + having a hit redirected to another tank (granting the healers more breathing room). I wouldn't say it's a wasted talent.

EDIT: Got beaten to it. This might be an irrelevant post now.

Safeguard 2/2 is 30% damage reduction. So it's 30% damage reduction 20% of the time, which is fairly overpowered. But my point of getting gibbed still stands. I didn't even consider Council P3, or Pit Lord Argoloth in my usage of Safeguard, but they are still very relevant to maximising its usage. I'm sure we'll see Safeguard come into more use in later tiers, but right now, I would still only pick it for a couple of fights (like the examples in my previous post). I would definitely refrain from using it on ODS as both tanks are taking near constant damage unless they're casting and not melee-ing. But used on a non-tank to counter Magmatron's single target flamethrower would be the only safe usage of that in the encounter, methinks. I'd wait a tier or two and see if the encounters allow a more free usage of it.

Influxreptile · 12/31/10, 5:48 AM

Originally Posted by Vistana

Safeguard 2/2 is 30% damage reduction. So it's 30% damage reduction 20% of the time, which is fairly overpowered. But my point of getting gibbed still stands. I didn't even consider Council P3, or Pit Lord Argoloth in my usage of Safeguard, but they are still very relevant to maximising its usage. I'm sure we'll see Safeguard come into more use in later tiers, but right now, I would still only pick it for a couple of fights (like the examples in my previous post). I would definitely refrain from using it on ODS as both tanks are taking near constant damage unless they're casting and not melee-ing. But used on a non-tank to counter Magmatron's single target flamethrower would be the only safe usage of that in the encounter, methinks. I'd wait a tier or two and see if the encounters allow a more free usage of it.

My apologies for the mistake. Indeed the maximum potential would be 6% overall damage reduction, when considering mana usage on the tank.

As for ODS, all 4 of the bosses stop their melee damage frequently to cast as you've already mentioned. The intervalls aren't too far off 30 seconds so intervening the other that at that point isn't dangerous at all. All in all it probably won't make or break any of the current fights but I wouldn't dare to say that investing the points in victory rush possibilities is a better choice.

Jo_bear · 12/31/10, 12:07 PM

I have a question about blood craze, i am really not sure it is a viable survie talent. 3.5 seems extremely low and most of all the proc is totally random. I actually made some test it can proc almost 2 time on the row or not procing for 30 sec. Of course i am aware it depend on how often we get hits. But after read some post above about improve VR i am tempted to put the point there instead of blood craze.

Harmann · 12/31/10, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by Casstor

Isn't there more to mastery than this though?

For one, as was more important back in wotlk, isn't it usually better to have a more consistent and less intense version of damage avoidance? Even if we are given that tank deaths due to spiky damage is removed when the tank performs appropriately (and judging from some previous posts, I'm not sure we are), could it really ever be removed so much that it makes up essentially 0% of all tank deaths? I guess what I'm saying is, shouldn't mastery be given a little bit more credit than just what damage it avoids, because it does help mitigate large spikes in physical damage better? I believe the line between damage avoidance and EH should be a bit less binary, with at least some consideration being placed on both. I'm not saying that we should rely on mastery solely based on this virtue, I'm just saying given that the line is so thin anyway, shouldn't this consideration tip the scales a bit?

Exactly, I think people are looking at these things in too much of a vacuum. There's a lot of stuff to consider, but one of the most important things is that as a tank, there will always be some form of HoTs and healing effects being placed on you that require you being sub 100% HP to be effective. That simple fact alone means that a tank who (just as a completely random example) takes 90% less damage at all times is far more efficient to heal than one with 90% avoidance, but 10% to get smacked.

While one could argue that avoidance streaks let the healers catch up on raid members, in practice it doesn't really work like that...I likely have a tank Beaconed so any avoidance leads to wasted healing potential even when I'm healing the raid, Druids don't really move their Lifeblooms around so those are being wasted while you sit at 100%, just a couple examples. My point is that irregardless of math telling you that various Mastery levels optimize your total avoidance over time, in the real world you're ideally trying to just smooth out the damage, because that is what makes it the easiest to effectively heal you. I'd say the correct way to play a tank is to make it the easiest for the healers to keep you alive, not to min/max some % because a spreadsheet says it averages out to less damage over time. Mastery accomplishes the former, avoidance the latter.

From anecdotal personal experience, Warrior tanks are the #1 easiest to heal for me. They more or less take SOME damage all the time, but it's very smooth and reduced which allows me to get a LOT out of Beacon of Light's free healing...it rarely goes to waste on Warrior. Conversely, I find Bear tanks to be the hardest to heal. Lots of my Beacon heals go to waste due to avoidance streaks and then I'm forced to use my big, expensive heal to get them back to reasonable health when they do take some hits. Even if over time, the Warrior averaged out to take 1% more damage than the Druid...the style of mitigation increases my healing efficiency by a LOT more than 1%.

Brian H. · 12/31/10, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by shutyaev

Is this always right? For example, should I reforge dodge for parry and parry for mastery when possible?

As far as reforging goes, the most gains overall to both threat build and survivability that I have seen is when following the
Mastery>Parry>Dodge stat priority (this stat priority list is only in regards to reforging as reforging for more stam is impossible, a decent health pool should be maintained but not at the sacrifice of the avoidance stats. The dual cut gems ie Mastery/Stam etc cuts of gems should be used to achieve this). The best practice for reforging is to focus more towards the parry and mastery stats. So for example if a piece of your tanking set has mastery and parry already on it then no reforging is necessary. Where as if you are wearing a piece with secondary stats Mastery and Dodge or Parry and Dodge then reforge as follows.

Mastery & Dodge on gear = reforge dodge to parry as this will help with threat gen and dodge is the weakest stat for threat gen when combined with its use in avoidance. As well as this will help with Hold the Line procs.

Parry & Dodge on gear = you should consider reforging the dodge to either mastery or to expertise depending on your level of gear and if you are or are not expertise capped at your current gear level.

The options your have for reforging should be balanced with the stats you are prioritizing in gems as well. Anyone that is using straight cuts to certain stats should use reforging to make up for stats they are not gemming for. In the Cata expansion its no longer the clear cookie cutter list of reforging and gemming options to follow. A healthy balance to all of your stats will make you more adaptable to fill the role of Heroic, Raid(main) and Raid(off) tanks.