[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior - Page 8

Gnomeover · 12/31/10, 4:52 PM

I am a tank in a 10 man raid guild. Here is an observation I have made that only applies to 10 mans. This is due to 25 mans running many more interrupters than a 10 man most likely would.

Foolishly, I was reforging Dodge into Parry, Parry into Mastery, etc. Last night I was trying to do interrupts on Omnotron and Halfus to find my hit rating really hurt my raid. I would miss an interrupt and big damage hit the raid group. Upon reforging to max hit, I found that over all I lost only 1% pure evasion (dodge/parry) and 3% Shield block. However, I found that I gained 7% hit. Honestly, reforging right now seems to be more beneficially used on hit than on defensive abilities.

Honestly, if you are running a strict 10 man comp, where you may not have that extra interrupt, consider reforging for hit rather than defensive stats.

Vistana · 12/31/10, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gnomeover

Honestly, if you are running a strict 10 man comp, where you may not have that extra interrupt, consider reforging for hit rather than defensive stats.

I find that even in the majority of strict 10 mans, there are plenty of reliable interrupts from the 5-6 DPS on each encounter. Even if not, I'd still recommend reforging to survival stats over threat stats, with the single exception of druid tanks that need a decent amount of hit/expertise for their mastery to be somewhat effective. The first week of Halfus and Shadow Novas caused problems with the lack of hit on most people's 333/346 gear, but after a day of finishing reputation upgrades and proper consumable choices, interrupts were made trivial after all damage dealers reached their specials hit cap.

I don't mean to sound like a nit-picker, but 4% avoidance (and by avoidance I am considering dodge/parry/block) is HUGE at this stage of the expansion where reaching unhittable is the ultimate goal for shield-bearing tanks. If you consider that 10 mans run 3 healers on most occasions, and 25 mans run 7:
10/3 = 3.33333... people per healer
25/7 = 3.57142... ^^
So that's roughly the same amount of people each healer is getting on both lockouts, so unless 25 mans haven't changed from WotLK (where paladins focused-healed tanks over anything else), the majority of healers in your given raid are trying to keep the tank(s) and the raid simultaneously without taking specialisation over one or the other, and stopping damage in any way possible to save healer mana, might be key on those long encounters (ODS Heroic, for one).

Gnomeover · 01/01/11, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vistana

I find that even in the majority of strict 10 mans, there are plenty of reliable interrupts from the 5-6 DPS on each encounter. Even if not, I'd still recommend reforging to survival stats over threat stats

Unfortunately, I greatly disagree. Lets take the Omnotron fight for example. Arcanotron has a spell that is vital to interrupt. In my 10 man comp the reliable kicks with low cooldowns we have are from the Feral Tank, Prot tank (me), a DPS DK and a Resto Shaman. Other than that we run a mage and boomkin - both of which are extremely less than ideal due to the long cooldowns on both interrupts.

In this scenario we can only really rely on our 3 kicks, due to the healer may be busy and has no hit. However, this is a two tank fight, and in many cases it is safer to tank apart rather than on top of each other. This leaves 2 kicks for Arcanotron (dk and tank). This means that hit cap is extremely important, because if Arcanotron gets a cast of while standing in a puddle (which is entirely possible as he has a chance at casting the puddle then an immediate arcane bolt) then you have 1 dead raid member in a 10 man fight.

Halfus is another important fight, as healing at this point in the game sucks. If Halfus gets a cast off on his aoe it really sets you back.

Interrupting the ice guy on Ascendency Counsil by the tank helps a ton too.

So really, I must respectfully disagree with you with this. Remember, I only lost 1-2% evasion when reforging to max hit. In reality by doing so I am reducing much more damage in these particular fights than 1-2% evasion would.

Vistana · 01/01/11, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gnomeover

Unfortunately, I greatly disagree. Lets take the Omnotron fight for example. Arcanotron has a spell that is vital to interrupt. In my 10 man comp the reliable kicks with low cooldowns we have are from the Feral Tank, Prot tank (me), a DPS DK and a Resto Shaman. Other than that we run a mage and boomkin - both of which are extremely less than ideal due to the long cooldowns on both interrupts.

In this scenario we can only really rely on our 3 kicks, due to the healer may be busy and has no hit. However, this is a two tank fight, and in many cases it is safer to tank apart rather than on top of each other. This leaves 2 kicks for Arcanotron (dk and tank). This means that hit cap is extremely important, because if Arcanotron gets a cast of while standing in a puddle (which is entirely possible as he has a chance at casting the puddle then an immediate arcane bolt) then you have 1 dead raid member in a 10 man fight.

After encountering this situation with Archanotron's interrupts (as he was powering down from 50-0) when our Elemental Shaman was absent and couldn't get every one, we tried solo tanking it, and successfully, too. It's definitely not a viable strategy for 25 man or 10 Heroic, but if your interrupts are lacking and you've got an evenly spread melee:ranged/healers then it can be quite easy. My healers even commented that I, the single tank, was easier to heal than two-tanking it with a very geared bear. The shields only last for ~10 seconds, in that time its ridiculously easy to stop cleaves and enables melee to focus-interrupt. Or, you could two-tank them together for the same effect.

Not saying it works for everyone, but this is what my 10 man did to overcome it.

Ratak · 01/02/11, 5:37 AM

Stamina > Mastery > Parry > Dodge

Since parried or dodged attacks are fully mitigated, where as blocked attacks are only reduced by an average of 0,3x(1+0.01x %critical block chances), I think it is incorrect to write mastery > Dodge/parry

I can't see this happen before 30% critical block chances and a dodge or parry chances are high enough so that diminishing returns make ~300 dodge/parry rating = +1% dodge/parry chances, which is not necessary the case.

This is assuming you have Blood and Thunder talent. Using T. Clap like clockwork will help your threat somewhat, especially by adding Thunderstruck charges for the next Shockwave, but the most important step is to keep Rend rolling on all your targets. It makes a dramatic difference in your sustained threat versus not having the talent. Remaining GCDs should be occupied prioritizing Revenge and then single-target abilities.

.
If I compare 2 rotations, at the start of the same fight.

First rotation : Rend => TC => SW => gcd => gcd => TC

We'll pick for threats per second (= total threat / Cooldown) the followings :
Rend : 2 142
TC : 2 415
SW : 1 524

The opportunity cost of the first rend is (per target) :
1.5 * 2 415 + 3* 1 524 = 8 194 threat.

Second rotation : TC => SW => gcd => Rend => TC (rend is delayed) :
the opportunity cost of the first TS is (per target) :
1.5* 1 524 + 6*2 142= 15 138

The difference beetween the two rotations, is ~7 000 threat.
So even if it is a bit better (in terms of threat) not to delay the first rend, the overall difference is about the quarter of the threat of a devaste which is not a "dramatic" difference.

Muspel · 01/02/11, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ratak

Since parried or dodged attacks are fully mitigated, where as blocked attacks are only reduced by an average of 0,3x(1+0.01x %critical block chances), I think it is incorrect to write mastery > Dodge/parry

The main reason why mastery is more valuable is because you get a lot more block % per mastery rating than you get of dodge or parry per rating point.

Also, dodge and parry are affected by diminishing returns, while mastery isn't. This means that mastery gets you closer to unhittable and smooths out your damage intake.

For instance, I currently have 1097 dodge rating, which is giving me 6.21% dodge. My parry rating of 1913 is translating into 10.10% parry. Meanwhile, my 2273 mastery rating is giving me 19.02% block and critical block.

That's actually surprisingly close to twice the benefit.

zork · 01/03/11, 6:20 AM

I made a small list of current warrior maintanks. It comes in handy at times.

Kungen - Tarilya - Grafarion - Toffel - Xav - Sco
* list is in no specific order

Some of the maintanks preferred gemming for mastery while others still go all out on stamina.
Gemming for mastery seems to decrease the damage you get while gemming for stamina increases your effective health.
But since the mana pool of healers has become an issue mastery will trump stamina if you have enough health to survive all of the boss attacks.

Hanoumatoi · 01/03/11, 6:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ratak

The difference beetween the two rotations, is ~7 000 threat.
So even if it is a bit better (in terms of threat) not to delay the first rend, the overall difference is about the quarter of the threat of a devaste which is not a "dramatic" difference.

The gentleman you quoted was noting a dramatic difference between rolling rends on every target via the blood and thunder talent, versus not having the talent, not a rotational based difference with the talent.
As to your math, how many times did you calculate the initial tick of rend in when averaging, since we only get that initial tick upon application or spreading to a target which does not have Rend?

Lantador · 01/03/11, 11:32 AM

I'm interested in the post Mokkhyr made (#16), discussing whats currently the most feasible meta of Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond and Austere Shadowspirit Diamond.

Apparently the block value meta only buffs the block value to 31,05% and not 31,5% (0,3*1,05). Currently we're sitting at somewhere around 36000 armor and somewhere close or semi-close to 60% block depending on gemming.

I'm interested in why most people (not all) seem to pick the 2% armor meta, when the block meta seems to be superior already now at current gear levels.

Originally Posted by Mokkhyr

Regular hit
Damage taken with Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.9 * (1 - 36000 / (36000 + 2167.5 * 88 - 158167.5)) = 0.427507382
Damage taken with Austere Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.9 * (1 - 36000 * 1.02 / (36000 * 1.02 + 2167.5 * 88 - 158167.5)) = 0.423065266

Block
Damage taken with Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.427507382 * (1 - 0.3105) = 0.294766339
Damage taken with Austere Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.423065266 * (1 - 0.3) = 0.296145686

Crit block
Damage taken with Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.427507382 * (1 - 0.621) = 0.162025297
Damage taken with Austere Shadowspirit Diamond: 0.423065266 * (1 - 0.6) = 0.169226106

MasterDinadan · 01/03/11, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Lantador

I'm interested in the post Mokkhyr made (#16), discussing whats currently the most feasible meta of Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond and Austere Shadowspirit Diamond.

Apparently the the block value meta only buffs the block value to 31,05% and not 31,5% (0,3*1,05). Currently we're sitting at somewhere around 36000 armor and somewhere close or semi-close to 60% block depending on gemming.

I'm interested in why most people (not all) seem to pick the 2% armor meta, when the block meta seems to be superior already now at current gear levels.

In my case, the Austere was easier to come by. It's still early in Cata so it can be difficult to find a JC with a specific pattern. There wasn't a single Eternal on the AH any time that I looked.
It seems to me that at this point in Cata, a lot of people are gemming and enchanting with whatever is most conveniently available, knowing that much of their gear will be replaced in the short-term, especially if they still have a blue helmet.

I agree with you that the Eternal seems much better, but I haven't done the math for myself.

MasterDinadan · 01/04/11, 9:29 AM

To all of the mastery "nay-sayers," do the math before you start complaining that it can't compete with dodge and parry. Diminishing returns are a big deal and significantly devalue dodge and parry rating even if you don't make a big effort to stack them. I'm stacking mastery at all costs and only getting parry and dodge where mastery isn't available, and I still am getting worse returns from dodge and parry because of DR.

I made a spreadsheet to model average damage mitigation and the variance in mitigated damage. I should note that I'm wearing mostly heroic level gear and I'm reforging and gemming mastery. With this gear, dropping 100 points in dodge/parry rating an increasing mastery by 100 has a negligible effect on my average mitigation (.01% or something) but the standard deviation changes by a much more significant amount.

The conclusion is that for a typical heroic geared tank, mastery is roughly equivalent to dodge or parry for providing average mitigation, but it does so with far less variation, making the job easier on a healer. It's obvious that mastery is the best rating stat for mitigation.

If you are reforging and gemming for dodge/parry because it "feels" right, you are in the wrong place. We don't decide things by feeling and intuition here. Trust those of us who have done the math, or do it yourself.

Shyrian · 01/04/11, 11:21 AM

I see no discussion on where the soft cap for mastery is. Because of critical block, I don't believe there will be a hard cap. There is a theoretical point where it might be more efficient to start reforging your stats back into dodge.

I made a macro to calculate my current %hittable and the amount of mastery needed to become unhittable.

With SB up, I am 7.71% hittable, ~926 mastery from unhittable. This should be more than attainable.
With SB down, I am 32.71% hittable, ~3927 mastery from unhittable. Not sure if this will be attainable, but we have a few teirs of gear coming so who knows?

When I become unhittable with SB up, does it become more efficient to reforge back into avoidance (dodge specifically)? Does SB's cooldown make it better not to rely on it and OK to waste the 'overblock'? Or does the critical block aspect of mastery still make it a clear choice (does it outweigh the dodge diminished returns)?

I need one of those statistics math monkeys to crunch the theoretical damage numbers.

The macro: (for those who wish to play with it themselves)

/run b=GetBlockChance() d=GetDodgeChance() p=GetParryChance() m=5 if UnitRace("player")=="Night Elf" then m=m+2 end a=102.4-m-d-p-b q=a/.00833 DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(a.."% hittable") DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(q.. " mastery for unhittable")

Garganchewin · 01/04/11, 11:48 AM

Shyrian, there is no 'overblock' from SB.

In fact, from looking roughly at the possible caps, Shield Block's caveat for when it brings you past unhittable leads me to believe there won't be a legitimately negative cap for stacking mastery until the excess crit block from unhittable shield block brings you past 100% crit block.

I doubt this will be reasonably attainable as that kind of mitigation would be almost as bad as the invulnerable block sets they did away with with the block overhaul.

Elimbras · 01/04/11, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Vistana

. I didn't even consider Council P3, or Pit Lord Argoloth in my usage of Safeguard, but they are still very relevant to maximising its usage. I'm sure we'll see Safeguard come into more use in later tiers, but right now, I would still only pick it for a couple of fights (like the examples in my previous post). I would definitely refrain from using it on ODS as both tanks are taking near constant damage unless they're casting and not melee-ing. But used on a non-tank to counter Magmatron's single target flamethrower would be the only safe usage of that in the encounter, methinks. I'd wait a tier or two and see if the encounters allow a more free usage of it.

It could be useful in the throne of the four wind - 25 players, for the first boss (conclave of the wind), on the left platform. The OT here just gather the (unfrequent) adds, and switch positions with the MT of the central platform. Especially if your MT is low to escape when the boss reach 90 energy and enrages for a short time (hitting a 100k or more without cd). Safeguard is then one additional much needed cd.

Shyrian · 01/04/11, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Garganchewin

Shyrian, there is no 'overblock' from SB.

In fact, from looking roughly at the possible caps, Shield Block's caveat for when it brings you past unhittable leads me to believe there won't be a legitimately negative cap for stacking mastery until the excess crit block from unhittable shield block brings you past 100% crit block.

I doubt this will be reasonably attainable as that kind of mitigation would be almost as bad as the invulnerable block sets they did away with with the block overhaul.

I see. Theoretically then with hold the line and shield block rolling up the full 25%, 65% crit block would be the true mastery soft cap (~6363 mastery).