Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warriors

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01/04/11, 4:12 PM   #121
Deathwing
Bald Bull
 
Deathwing's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Might be lower than you think. Take a look at your shield block BUFF next time you pop it.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/04/11, 6:22 PM   #122
Andenthal
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Shyrian View Post
I see. Theoretically then with hold the line and shield block rolling up the full 25%, 65% crit block would be the true mastery soft cap (~6363 mastery).
Accounting for Shield Block - your Mastery cap is dependant upon your total Avoidance. As your Avoidance goes up, your Mastery cap goes down.

6363 Mastery Rating would get you Mastery capped if you could somehow lower your Dodge, Parry and chance to be missed all to zero.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/04/11, 7:09 PM   #123
Shyrian
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Azuremyst
My understanding is that Critical Block is a 2nd roll that happens when you successfully block.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/04/11, 11:05 PM   #124
silverbow25
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Emerald Dream
Originally Posted by Scorned View Post
Never tank with a fast weapon.
What is the reason for not tanking with a fast weapon? I thought a faster weapon would simply mean more Heroic strikes/ Cleaves. I didn't realize there was any downside.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/04/11, 11:11 PM   #125
Rott
Von Kaiser
 
Rott's Avatar
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Shattered Hand
Originally Posted by silverbow25 View Post
What is the reason for not tanking with a fast weapon? I thought a faster weapon would simply mean more Heroic strikes/ Cleaves. I didn't realize there was any downside.
This used to be the case when heroic strike was a spammable, on-next-hit attack.

Now it has a cooldown.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 1:10 AM   #126
Shyrian
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Azuremyst
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
Might be lower than you think. Take a look at your shield block BUFF next time you pop it.
I did and it blew my mind. When I activated shield block it said I was getting a 25% boost to block and a staggering 19% boost to critical block.

Just for giggles, I proc'd my dodge trinket before activating shield block. This boosted my dodge by 6.5%. The shield block buff said now my crit block boost was 26%! That's even more than I would have thought was theoretically possible given the description of the ability. If it adds 25%, how can it roll over by 26%?

Anybody got an explanation?

As far as I can tell, blizard is spotting me ~25% from somewhere when calculating the shield block rollover.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 1:34 AM   #127
Comohawk
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Velen
Okey wanted to get another opinion on my math, this is regarding the +2%armor meta VS. the +5%block. I didn't know if critical block is affected by the meta but i assume it is (corret me if im wrong). Heres what i got, again correct me if i'm wrong.

The 2% Armor meta is (with my gear)+704 armor or .48% armor gain.
Now the Block Meta gives me +1% dmg reduction on block.

Now lets simulate these numbers, lets say we are fighting a boss that hits on average for 40k, and hit me on average 300 times in a fight. The Armor meta will mitaged roughly 196 dmg extra a hit, and over the corse of the 300 hits 58,800 dmg.

Now lets take are block, and this is where the math gets iffy because there are alot of variables for my napkin math. but lets continue with the same idea. Average hit from boss is 40k and we are talking 300 hits. my block atm is 52.64% this means i should block 157.92 hits (158). at 31% block reduction on a 40k hit = 12,400 reduced. at 30% block reduction on a 40k hit=12,000 reduced (400 difference). now we take 400 multiply it by 158 and we get 63,200 extra reduced dmg from the meta. thats 4,400 more dmg reduction than the armor meta takeing a 40k hit 300 times. i may have missed a varible along the way, if so feel free to fix my math but i'm confident that i have nailed it on the head. take it away EJ forums!

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 2:30 AM   #128
Bloodhawker
Glass Joe
 
Bloodhawker's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Rexxar (EU)
If the 2% armor class bonus increases your armor class from 58.14% to 58.72% (I think that is what you are describing), it doesn't mitigate .48% of the 40k hit you're taking with 58.14% armor class, but .48% of the ~100k hit you would be taking with zero armor class.
Another thing you didn't include is critical block. You are currently at around 12% critical block, which would increase the Eternal Diamond's score to ~70.8k.
Edit: Note that all our calculations are without Shield Block or Hold the Line.

Last edited by Bloodhawker : 01/05/11 at 2:36 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 2:54 AM   #129
Yeria
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
Might be lower than you think. Take a look at your shield block BUFF next time you pop it.
Hmm, it would appear that Shield Block always doubles your Critical Block chance. I've changed some items around and checked the buff and it was always showing an increased Critblock chance equal to the amount of Critblock that I already had.
This is however also the first time I hear about Shield Block doing that, was there any information on this previously that I just missed or is this a fairly new find?

In any case, this makes Shield Block a fairly significant cooldown - it is very real to reach 100% Critblock with Shield Block up before even reaching the "normal" Block Softcap, which makes Shield Block a 60% reduction on melee hits on a 30 second cooldown at that point, which is pretty damn good.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 3:06 AM   #130
Vistana
Glass Joe
 
Vistana's Avatar
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Jubei'Thos
Originally Posted by Shyrian View Post
I did and it blew my mind. When I activated shield block it said I was getting a 25% boost to block and a staggering 19% boost to critical block.

Just for giggles, I proc'd my dodge trinket before activating shield block. This boosted my dodge by 6.5%. The shield block buff said now my crit block boost was 26%! That's even more than I would have thought was theoretically possible given the description of the ability. If it adds 25%, how can it roll over by 26%?

Anybody got an explanation?

As far as I can tell, blizard is spotting me ~25% from somewhere when calculating the shield block rollover.
Shield Block: Increases your chance to block by 25% for 10 sec. In addition, if your total chance to block or avoid an attack exceeds 100%, your chance to critically block is increased by the excess.

The way I thought it was intended was that if I had:
75% avoidance unbuffed: Shield Block would increase my block chance by 25% and leave my critical block alone.
76% avoidance unbuffed: Shield Block would increase my block chance by 24% and increase my critical block chance by 1% (which is the excess over 100% total avoidance)
77% avoidance unbuffed: Shield Block would increase my block chance by 23% and increase my critical block chance by 2%.
etc. But it's obviously not working this way, and there's some hidden mechanic in there.

Using my own stats:
Without buffs (9.19% dodge/16.05% parry/ 51.41% block = 76.65% total), I get 25% Block Chance and 31% Critical Block Chance.
With my Throngus' Finger proc up (now 16.72% dodge, and base parry/block), I get the same 25% Block Chance and 39% Critical Block Chance.
With my Heroic Porcelain Crab proc up (same dodge/parry as before, but now 65.72% block chance), I get the same 25% Block Chance and now a whopping 45% Critical Block Chance.

So the Critical Block Chance is obviously increasing as you get more and more avoidance through procs and gear, but the tooltip for Shield Block doesn't make any sense with this evidence. Theoretically, I could (or anyone could, for that matter) reach near 100% Critical Block Chance with Shield Block and full avoidance procs, which is a 60% damage reduction to melee attacks for as long as the procs last, which could only be a maximum of 10 seconds because of the duration of Shield Block.

Edit: Someone beat me to it

Australia Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 4:52 AM   #131
Booi
Glass Joe
 
Booi's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Shyrian View Post
There is a theoretical point where it might be more efficient to start reforging your stats back into dodge.
Mastery provides comparable damage reduction to dodge and parry going from 100% melees to 70% melees. Going from a 70% melee to a 40% is more damage reduction. Meaning, Mastery is better at reducing damage after unhittable than it was before. Especially since you will be higher up the DR curves on your avoidance stats.

There is no "theoretical point" where we switch back to dodge and parry. If you hit 100% critical block - sure, okay. If you can hit unhittable passively, you'd be ~35% passive critical block. And then when you hit shield block you'd be up another 50% bringing you to ~85% crit block before hold the line. Essentially: when you hit unhittable, shield block will almost bring you to crit block cap.

The question then is: If you can hit 50% passive crit block is it worth it to keep pushing mastery as you push shield block off the combat table. And keep in mind this is all dependent on bosses not catching expertise in later tiers (though this would be independent of block)

So if you are at "Soft Critical Block Cap" then shield block naturally brings you to crit block 1/3rd of the time. And since the mastery argument is always centric in damage reduction comparisons to avoidance... Meaning: independent of "smoothing out the damage" - no I'm not an advocate, but it gives them a leg up stepping into the argument.

Mastery brings your critical block up twice as fast as it does pre unhittable, because the block portion is also converted to critical block. So stepping from a a 70% melee to a 40% melee is a 42.8% damage reduction.

179.28 mastery rating would bring you 3% critical block.
176.71899 dodge would bring you 1% pre dr avoid.

The rest of this will be laid out relatively. Meaning that if you are at 30% avoidance, 1% avoidance is ~1.4% damage reduction, not 1% damage reduction. But since you are at equal levels of avoidance given the argument, the mastery/avoidance argument has the same reference point. If you want, you can bounce the numbers through, but the conclusion should be the same). Just thought I'd mention this in case I am missing a glaring issue where it isn't.

Moving on,
1% pre DR avoid is 1% damage reduction all the time (independent of shield block - pre DR)
3% critical block is 1.28% damage reduction (before shield block), which only works 2/3rds of the time (thanks shield block) and is therefore only worth 0.85% damage reduction on average.

So where does avoidance DR to under 85% efficiency?
Around 1000 avoidance rating. (Nice greens)

TLDR
Until you hit 100% passive Critical Block, mastery will still warrant more damage reduction than avoidance.

EDIT:
Thought I would include this for the sake of elegance:
Imagine the last 3% of hits that you are trying to cover with avoidance or mastery after unhittable.

Normal Block (baseline)
70 + 70 + 70 = 210

~175 avoidance rating (assuming no DR - lawl)
70 + 70 + 0 = 140

~175 mastery rating
40 + 40 + 40 = 120

Last edited by Booi : 01/05/11 at 5:21 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 6:15 AM   #132
Dougen
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Durotan (EU)
I don't understand why Impending Victory shoulnd be skilled for something like cruelty or deep wounds. The last 20% of a boss mostly is the hot phase, where healers are going to be oom. It's the time my rotation changes into devastate, devastate, victory rush and so on.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 7:06 AM   #133
Flaky
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Drak'thul (EU)
Hi, why do I see lots of tanks with around 1% hit ? :X Should I reforge all hit into avoid or hold hit cap cause of aggro and important things like interrupts? thx and it's for 10 men raids

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 8:11 AM   #134
Shan
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Warrior
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Flaky View Post
Hi, why do I see lots of tanks with around 1% hit ? :X Should I reforge all hit into avoid or hold hit cap cause of aggro and important things like interrupts? thx and it's for 10 men raids
1% hit is acceptable, unless you're raiding 10 man and there is no one else that can reliably interrupt.

Austria Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/05/11, 8:17 AM   #135
MasterDinadan
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Staghelm
Originally Posted by Flaky View Post
Hi, why do I see lots of tanks with around 1% hit ? :X Should I reforge all hit into avoid or hold hit cap cause of aggro and important things like interrupts? thx and it's for 10 men raids
The only strong reason to gear hit is so that your interrupt doesn't miss. It does of course provide a bit of a threat boost, but in most cases that won't be a big issue. Basically, if you have to take a piece with some offensive stat on it, there's a strong argument for preferring Hit above all else (Expertise being the other strong choice, will do add more damage and threat, but doesn't help with interrupts).

As long as you are able to hold aggro, it doesn't make sense to give up mitigation stats for more offense. The tank's entire purpose is to mitigate damage.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warriors

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Protection warrior: Stamina VS mitigation necropsis Class Mechanics 144 11/19/07 10:35 AM
[protection warrior] Can someone explain this ? juggernauth Class Mechanics 46 08/23/07 7:49 PM
Warrior Protection Talents - 2.1 HiroCT Class Mechanics 11 04/18/07 11:38 AM
Protection Warrior in Arena Alexmeria2 Public Discussion 35 02/21/07 6:33 PM