Elitist Jerks [Cataclysm] Warrior: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

08/24/11, 6:56 PM   #346
Rallik
Piston Honda

Orc Warrior

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by JamesVZ Err? This is some really pretty bad math, here. The decision is between choosing avoidance or mastery, not the relative worth of either stat once you do make the choice. Regardless, it's not actually 'literally impossible.' Every bit of math that has been done on Critical Block versus avoidance ratings shows that it's the far more preferable stat in every scenario, and it makes sense too. The simplest way to look at it is this: the more mastery you have, the more valuable it becomes, whereas the more avoidance you have, the more costly it becomes.
Direct me to said math on critical block you're referencing and I'll be happy to point out its flaws. I'll also just go through my own math on the subject with various scenarios past full CTC where avoidance is superior to crit block.

I'm assuming ratings after all buffs, fighting a boss that averages 5 swings inside 10 seconds for HTL uptime, 33.333..% SB uptime, and using the 1% BV meta:

Ratings: Mastery = 4100, Dodge = 2000, Parry = 2400
HTL Uptime = 1-(1-.1608)^5 = 58.37%
Base CT: Miss = 4.4%, Dodge = 14.43%, Parry = 16.08%, Block = 65.09%, Hit = 0%
Crit block %s: Normal = 46.3%, with SB up = 74.32%, with HTL up = 56.3%, with HTL+SB = 84.32%
Average dmg taken after avoidance: Normal = .6509*(1-.463)*.69 + .6509*.463*.38 = 35.57%, with SB up = .6509*(1-.7432)*.69 + .6509*.7432*.38 = 29.92%, with HTL up = .6509*(1-.563)*.69 + .6509*.563*.38 = 33.55%, with HTL+SB = .6509*(1-.8432)*.69 + .6509*.8432*.38 = 27.9%
Average uptimes of each situation: Normal = (1-.5837)*2/3 = 27.75%, with SB = (1-.5837)*1/3 = 13.88%, with HTL = .5837*2/3 = 38.91%, with HTL+SB = .5837*1/3 = 19.46%
Total average damage taken = .3557*.2775 + .2992*.1388 + .3355*.3891 + .279*.1946 = 32.508%.

Skipping some of the more verbose math now, but it follows as above.
Adding 100 dodge rating to Mastery = 4100, Dodge = 2100, Parry = 2400:
HTL Uptime = 1-(1-.1608)^5 = 58.37%
Base CT: Miss = 4.4%, Dodge = 14.85%, Parry = 16.08%, Block = 64.67%, Hit = 0%
Crit block %s: Normal = 46.3%, with SB up = 74.74%, with HTL up = 56.3%, with HTL+SB = 84.74%
Average dmg taken after avoidance: Normal = 35.34%, with SB up = 29.64%, with HTL up = 33.34%, with HTL+SB = 27.63%
Average uptimes of each situation: Normal = 27.75%, with SB = 13.88%, with HTL = 38.91%, with HTL+SB = 19.46%
Total average damage taken = 32.270%

Adding 100 parry rating to Mastery = 4100, Dodge = 2000, Parry = 2500:
HTL Uptime = 1-(1-.1648)^5 = 59.35%
Base CT: Miss = 4.4%, Dodge = 14.43%, Parry = 16.48%, Block = 64.7%, Hit = 0%
Crit block %s: Normal = 46.3%, with SB up = 74.71%, with HTL up = 56.3%, with HTL+SB = 84.71%
Average dmg taken after avoidance: Normal = 35.35%, with SB up = 29.66%, with HTL up = 33.35%, with HTL+SB = 27.65%
Average uptimes of each situation: Normal = 27.1%, with SB = 13.55%, with HTL = 39.57%, with HTL+SB = 19.78%
Total average damage taken = 32.264%

Adding 100 mastery rating to Mastery = 4200, Dodge = 2000, Parry = 2400:
HTL Uptime = 1-(1-.1608)^5 = 58.37%
Base CT: Miss = 4.4%, Dodge = 14.43%, Parry = 16.08%, Block = 65.09%, Hit = 0%
Crit block %s: Normal = 47.14%, with SB up = 75.99%, with HTL up = 57.14%, with HTL+SB = 85.99%
Average dmg taken after avoidance: Normal = 35.4%, with SB up = 29.58%, with HTL up = 33.38%, with HTL+SB = 27.56%
Average uptimes of each situation: Normal = 27.75%, with SB = 13.88%, with HTL = 38.91%, with HTL+SB = 19.46%
Total average damage taken = 32.283%

Adding mastery yields the worst gain in damage reduction. Now I'll skip all the documentation of the math since doing it is the same and just list the gains at other hypothetical gear situations:

Starting with Mastery = 4900, Dodge = 2000, Parry = 2400:
Dmg taken = 30.707%, +100 dodge = 30.48%, +100 parry = 30.474%, +100 mastery = 30.482%

Starting with Mastery = 4100, Dodge = 2350, Parry = 2850:
Dmt taken = 30.632%, +100 dodge = 30.408%, +100 parry = 30.408%, +100 mastery = 30.417%

To illustrate how DRs really don't have an impact, starting with 5200 dodge, 5500 parry, and only 2000 mastery:
Dmg taken = 23.993%, +100 dodge = 23.832%, +100 parry = 23.833%, +100 mastery = 23.841%

I could never find a scenario where mastery would ever be preferable to dodge or parry, so long as your dodge and parry are kept relatively close. If they're not close, mastery can overtake whichever one you have too much rating in, while the other will end up even farther ahead. I opted to leave out a really high mastery situation(past 5000 or so), since mastery diminishes in value again as soon as your crit block is capped with SB+HTL, which vaults dodge/parry well above it.

The ideal breakdown of avoidance stats once you're able to cover the combat table and given a fixed avoidance stat total to distribute will always be: As much into Dodge/Parry as you can get, splitting the 2 near evenly, with a bit of extra parry rating for HTL, while still having enough mastery to just barely cover the rest of the table.

Last edited by Rallik : 08/25/11 at 4:22 AM.

 08/25/11, 7:08 AM #347 Serivola Von Kaiser   Seriv Goblin Warrior   Nathrezim (EU) As you may see the difference in damage taken isn't that huge (in first scenario 0.238% : 0.244% : 0.225%, so the gain from avoidance is ~7% higher than from mastery). But the question is not how to get as less damage as possible but how to survive as much situations as possible. More mastery reduces the chance of getting damage spikes from multiple noncritical blockings more than avoidance by a much larger difference between those two stats (mastery is ~40% more effective) than avoidance reduces the total incoming damage compared to mastery. Last edited by Serivola : 08/25/11 at 7:26 AM.
08/25/11, 8:00 AM   #348
Shan
Piston Honda

Draenei Warrior

Ravencrest (EU)
 Confirming that mastery past 100% CTC is *significantly* worse than dodge/parry in any realistic combination of the three ratings. This is derived from a spreadsheet I've built over months to calculate things like that. Even with 4k+ dodge and parry rating, and a mere 2.2k mastery rating (which is about 40 mastery rating in excess of 100% CTC) mastery is still only 75% as valuable as dodge in reducing damage.
This may no longer be correct. It depends entirely on which Shield Block crit bonus formula is used in-game.

The results in thw quoted part were obtained with a formula where it's no possible to get more than 25% crit block from Shield Block. However older testing has shown this to be possible. So the question is which formula is actually used in the game now.

Last edited by Shan : 08/25/11 at 12:43 PM.

08/25/11, 10:55 AM   #349
JamesVZ
Mr. Sandman

Orc Warrior

Mal'Ganis
^^ You need to link said spreadsheet when saying stuff like this.

 Originally Posted by Agar You don't seem to realize the way a two roll system works.
I can assure you I understand the two roll nature of Critical Block perfectly, though I'm not entirely sure you do.

 Originally Posted by Rallik I could never find a scenario where mastery would ever be preferable to dodge or parry, so long as your dodge and parry are kept relatively close.
Did you calculate armor in there as well?

Anyway, there's some posts about this in the Prot Warrior thread since the start of Cataclysm that go into further detail I think, but the one linked recently to the WoW boards has some pretty decent math in it: Hold the Line 2: A guide to warrior avoidance - Forums - World of Warcraft

I know this graph doesn't include dodge, but ultimately it would just flatten out a bit. It's a pretty good visual for what Mastery stacking does.

I'm on that good ping and ventrilo, I've got some down bitches I can /tell. I don't know what I would do without y'all, I'mma raid till I get laid.

08/25/11, 2:31 PM   #350
Ragnar9000
Von Kaiser

Tauren Warrior

Fenris
 Originally Posted by kahalm From a mitigation point of view the two Blue Trinkets (Porcelain Crab, Throngus's Finger) are ahead of all the others (for my current gear) so this should be right, as the epic trinkets have ton of stamina on them and therefore less mitigation. Which trinkets you choose depend on gear/raid/encounter, I usually roll with one Stam/Mastery trinket and the Porcelain Crab and the mastery trinket from Tol Barad if magic damage is an issue.
The two 346 trinkets blue trinkets mentioned were OP for Prot Warriors. For physical damage, on average. pre-Firleands they were better than most higher level trinkets. The Crab especially so. An average mastery of up to 456 ((1710 X 20/100)+114) reforged, plus 171 dodge is just a bit shy of 5% coverage. The Finger lacks mastery and has less average coverage, but is a solid 2nd trinket. The weaknesses of these 2 trinkets is that part about 'average'. Towards the end of the Shannox and Beth'tilac fights, you may want more on demand and less on average.

 08/26/11, 9:10 AM #351 Eno Glass Joe   Eno Murloc Warrior   Bloodscalp (EU) pardon the rudeness (or read noobness) but a short question since I'm not at home raiding atm and have no tools to check out myself. Sulfuras normal vs Skullstealer greataxe HC (excluding weapon expertise benefits or anything) in TG. Skullstealer beating Sulfuras by a small marging right? Purely becuz of top dmg and ilvl? Even tho there is much more strength on Sulfuras. Last edited by Eno : 08/26/11 at 9:25 AM.
08/26/11, 10:54 AM   #352
Rynok
Dancing Monkey

Rynokism
Human Warrior

Non-US/EU Server
 Originally Posted by Eno pardon the rudeness (or read noobness) but a short question since I'm not at home raiding atm and have no tools to check out myself. Sulfuras normal vs Skullstealer greataxe HC (excluding weapon expertise benefits or anything) in TG. Skullstealer beating Sulfuras by a small marging right? Purely becuz of top dmg and ilvl? Even tho there is much more strength on Sulfuras.
No, actually. Taking into account every aspect of both weapons, it would be better for you to hold onto Sulfuras, the Extinguished Hand until you can pick up the Heroic version of that item. The potential Strength bonuses from Sulfuras more than make up for the difference in weapon damage (at 545 Strength, Sulfuras actually offers a 24.75 DPS increase over Skullstealer Greataxe). Further, Haste is horrible for Warriors- you're better off sticking with the Crit and lower Mastery rating (since you'll likely be reforging out of the Mastery anyway).

Last edited by Rynok : 08/26/11 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Wowhead item tags are glitching.

Tyráel: On the off chance that we don't suck at what we do, we should probably stop being so nice to people. They might get the wrong idea.
Rynok: You kicked someone from a PUG last week for sneezing in Vent without permission. How could anyone get the wrong idea about that?!

 08/26/11, 11:30 AM #353 Auron Von Kaiser   Auron Orc Warrior   Malfurion Skullstealer is slightly better, although both are very close, you cannot use the potential of 2 JC gems as you would be using those anywhere in your gear lowering the str gain to 31pts which the dps/dmg of skullstealer outperforms. I did not double check this math but after reforges you are looking at : 170 crit and 31 str vs 70 mastery, 187 haste and 33 weapon damage. This is all mainhand in my theories though as I believe sulfuras would be the better offhand as its more of a statstick there.
08/26/11, 12:34 PM   #354
Rynok
Dancing Monkey

Rynokism
Human Warrior

Non-US/EU Server
 Originally Posted by Auron Skullstealer is slightly better, although both are very close, you cannot use the potential of 2 JC gems as you would be using those anywhere in your gear lowering the str gain to 31pts which the dps/dmg of skullstealer outperforms. I did not double check this math but after reforges you are looking at : 170 crit and 31 str vs 70 mastery, 187 haste and 33 weapon damage. This is all mainhand in my theories though as I believe sulfuras would be the better offhand as its more of a statstick there.
Even assuming we are using non-JC-only gems (+40 Str), Sulfuras still offers more desirable stats and a 17.04 DPS increase over the Skullstealer. But I should, also, clarify that all of my math is based on the weapons being Main Hand-equipped.

Tyráel: On the off chance that we don't suck at what we do, we should probably stop being so nice to people. They might get the wrong idea.
Rynok: You kicked someone from a PUG last week for sneezing in Vent without permission. How could anyone get the wrong idea about that?!

 08/26/11, 12:52 PM #355 Auron Von Kaiser   Auron Orc Warrior   Malfurion Are you reforging away the haste? Its tough to tell as I took a chardev profile my gear, changed to worgen to avoid the axe expertise and i get Axe main, mace offhand = 29783 Double maces = 29745 It could just be in the error, and its so close I would love to see your math taking all of that into account Last edited by Auron : 08/26/11 at 1:02 PM.
08/26/11, 2:27 PM   #356
Rynok
Dancing Monkey

Rynokism
Human Warrior

Non-US/EU Server
 Originally Posted by Auron Are you reforging away the haste? Its tough to tell as I took a chardev profile my gear, changed to worgen to avoid the axe expertise and i get Axe main, mace offhand = 29783 Double maces = 29745 It could just be in the error, and its so close I would love to see your math taking all of that into account
I actually found my mistake- I was simming based on the Human bonus to Exp using Maces, and I did not actually reforge away from Haste. After correcting my mistake, it turns out your math is correct. Until we have access to H Sulfuras, H Skullstealer is the better main hand option.

Tyráel: On the off chance that we don't suck at what we do, we should probably stop being so nice to people. They might get the wrong idea.
Rynok: You kicked someone from a PUG last week for sneezing in Vent without permission. How could anyone get the wrong idea about that?!

 08/31/11, 2:07 AM #357 Wyrmslayer Glass Joe   Dragonslayer Worgen Warrior   Aerie Peak
08/31/11, 12:12 PM   #358
Jakani
Piston Honda

Troll Rogue

Perenolde
 Originally Posted by Wyrmslayer
B.
It's a two-roll system. One roll on your initial combat table to determine if it's a block at all, then a second roll to determine if it was a critical block.

 08/31/11, 5:33 PM #359 TheMutt Glass Joe   Séras Draenei Warrior   Alleria Can anyone clarify for me the if 102.4% block cap is with shield block up? I find that I find myself sitting at 94% (ish) normally without SB up with mostly BiS t12 normal gear, is there something I am missing? I see most people talk about what to do after getting avoidance capped, but does that include SB and 4Pt12? Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
09/01/11, 1:14 AM   #360
Muspel
Piston Honda

Human Warrior

Korgath
 Originally Posted by TheMutt Can anyone clarify for me the if 102.4% block cap is with shield block up? I find that I find myself sitting at 94% (ish) normally without SB up with mostly BiS t12 normal gear, is there something I am missing? I see most people talk about what to do after getting avoidance capped, but does that include SB and 4Pt12? Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
It's without SB.

Block capping is extremely difficult for warriors. Unless you're in mostly 391s, you won't get there.

It's a goal, not a must-have.

Last edited by Muspel : 09/01/11 at 3:32 AM.

 Elitist Jerks [Cataclysm] Warrior: Simple Questions/Simple Answers