BIS DPS Warrior Discussion - Page 6

jtxdriggers · 08/08/11, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by jaydedone

I'm really undecided as to if H HoR is really better than Essence and my only argument is that u can line up essence with each DW and sneak one in between. HoR usually doesn't proc during your second DW. So taking that into note, is it still better to get the 2178 str at random times or be able to line up and extra 1277 str with each DW and all your other cd's ?

H HoR procs 2178 str for 20 seconds with an ICD of 90 seconds, whereas Essence has a use of 1277 str for 15 seconds on a fixed cooldown of 60 seconds. In any given fight, H HoR could provide a theoretical 22.2% (maximum) uptime of that 2178 str, whereas Essence could provide a 25% (if used on cd) uptime of only 1277 str. On average, H HoR would provide ~484 (again, maximum) str, and Essence would provide ~319 str. Delaying the use of Essence to line up with DWs and other CDs would reduce the average str even further. I think the average str here is why Landsoul rates Essence on par with License to Slay between subspecs (380 static str, minus stacking time).

The average strength difference aside, I feel that each trinket would pose its own advantages on a per-fight basis, as well as what gear is being used (however, speaking in terms of the BiS gear, we can ignore this last point).

suicuique · 08/08/11, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by jtxdriggers

H HoR procs 2178 str for 20 seconds with an ICD of 90 seconds, ...

The ICD of HoR is 100 seconds. And, from my experiences, you cannot base the average STR contribution of HoR on these 100 sec alone. The proc chance is way too low as to making the ICD the only limiting factor.

Essence has 20 secondary stats point more. This equates roughly to having 10 more static STR, or upping the on use budget of the Essence by 40.

So you have a 2178 STR proc on HoR with 100 SEC ICD vs a 1317 STR "on use" on Essence with 60 sec CD.
In a best case scenario HoR equates to 436 STR. And the essence equals a static value of 329 STR.
Easy decision, one would assume unless you account for the principal differences of proc vs on use trinkets.

jtxdriggers · 08/08/11, 1:12 PM

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

However, in jaydedone's post, it is argued that Essence could be better because one can line up its uses with other cooldowns. As I mentioned before, delaying its use even a few seconds would make its average strength even lower. I think the dps gain from stacking cooldowns still isn't enough to catch up with H HoR, especially on fights where lust/hero is used almost immediately, since HoR always seems to proc in the first few seconds for me. If there were a heroic version of Essence, then I think we'd have a pretty close comparison; however, I think that with what we are given, H HoR will pull out ahead in almost any case.

I'm SMF anyway, so I can't do much testing other than SimC and Landsoul's spreadsheet.

suicuique · 08/09/11, 5:53 AM

While I agree with you on everything you said, you have to keep in mind that

1) the STR contribution of HoR is *not* 2178/100*20. No matter how fast you think HoR is proccing the 100 seconds ICD is the biggest lower limit of proc intervals. The STR contribution is max 436 STR. This does skew the numbers in favor of HoR. Contrary to use effects which have a strict CD.

2) Procs can happen at the worst times. We all hated the HoR procs just in time before the RP intermission starts on Council in BoT, or when you had change platforms on Conclave. If you use the Essence in these moments you are the only one to blame. Not some freak event timeline. This does further dimish proc trinkets as a concept.

3) There are still enoughencounters with serious burn phases (Alyrazor on the ground, Staghelm with full concentration buff not reset e.g. by seed explosion). Use trinkets really shine on those.

check0790 · 08/09/11, 7:33 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

3) There are still enoughencounters with serious burn phases (Alyrazor on the ground, Staghelm with full concentration buff not reset e.g. by seed explosion). Use trinkets really shine on those.

At least, for the first repetition you have 220 sec until the burn phase(phase I 180 sec + phase II 40 sec). In the second phase you shouldn´t be able to trigger HoR in a perfect scenario, because there are no adds and so the proc should occur in the burn phase.

And for Staghelm:
I don´t know the exact rate for which concentration stacks, but if it is more than 1 per sec and you´re gonna take the first flame scythe, it should be possible to have 100% concentration and the proc of HoR.

edit: typo

jtxdriggers · 08/09/11, 11:24 AM

I fully understand your points, I have been speaking in absolute maximums. It's always annoying when HoR procs at what seems like the worst time (and when you can't do anything about the stacks from License and Vessel falling off). This is why I stated earlier that each trinket poses its own advantages on a per-fight basis. However, because of the high amount of expertise on HoR, one can't simply switch trinkets mid raid. HoR's value is deminished by its proc chance and the chance that it might proc at a bad time, and Essence's value is diminished by delaying its use.

The one thing I love about Essence is the fact that it doesn't have to stack to use it (Fury of Angerforge or more recently, Apparatus). I can recall scenarios where the stacks would fall off completely when I needed them most, i.e. council RP. Before they buffed the stack rate, this was pretty much a dealbreaker for those fights.

jtxdriggers · 08/10/11, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Asmalya

So it seems Apparatus gets buffed real hard.

Posting to clarify:

Originally Posted by MMO-Champion

Apparatus of Khaz'goroth now increases critical strike, haste, or mastery rating by 508, up from 306.
Apparatus of Khaz'goroth (H) now increases critical strike, haste, or mastery rating by 575, up from 345.

Also relevant to this discussion, even though it's already considered our best in slot:

Originally Posted by MMO-Champion

Vessel of Acceleration now grants 82 critical strike rating, up from 77.
Vessel of Acceleration (H) now grants 92 critical strike rating, up from 87.

MMO-Champion states that "most" of these changes are tooltip fixes to reflect the 4.2 hotfixes that are already active on live servers. Anyone want to verify that these changes are already active?

Rallik · 08/10/11, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by jtxdriggers

MMO-Champion states that "most" of these changes are tooltip fixes to reflect the 4.2 hotfixes that are already active on live servers. Anyone want to verify that these changes are already active?

All of the trinket changes have been active since about a week into Firelands' release. It was already known what the actual proc values on Vessel/Apparatus were when the BiS list was being put together. Nothing has changed except the tooltips being corrected.

Alexsiss · 08/10/11, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Rallik

All of the trinket changes have been active since about a week into Firelands' release. It was already known what the actual proc values on Vessel/Apparatus were when the BiS list was being put together. Nothing has changed except the tooltips being corrected.

Are you sure about that? I actually check Necromantic focus with a friend and it still gives 42 per stack on the normal version on live. Actual character stats change not tooltip. I know apparatus was incorrect and this was a tooltip fix but is the same true for Vessel? I don't have any means to test that particular trinket atm. It probably wont change trinket ranking I am just curious personally

Rallik · 08/10/11, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Alexsiss

Are you sure about that? I actually check Necromantic focus with a friend and it still gives 42 per stack on the normal version on live. Actual character stats change not tooltip. I know apparatus was incorrect and this was a tooltip fix but is the same true for Vessel? I don't have any means to test that particular trinket atm. It probably wont change trinket ranking I am just curious personally

Sorry, I meant the changes to the applicable warrior trinkets, vessel and apparatus. I don't know about the others.

Gulvak · 08/12/11, 7:14 PM

4.2.0 Known Issues - Updated 8/9/11 - Forums - World of Warcraft

Some trinkets received in Firelands (Apparatus of Khaz'goroth, Necromantic Focus, Vessel of Acceleration, and Matrix Restabilizer) are displaying incorrect stat values in their buff and item tooltips, the values applied are correct.

The applied values have been higher than the tooltip for all of Firelands. It was a tooltip error from the beginning the apparatus never had it's values modified and always been 508 per stack.

I really wish boub put more red text on that post. :P