Hamstring is never better than WW except in situations where WW would break CC. And Slam for a 2h is more rage efficient damage than either MS or WW depending on AP level and the top end damage and speed of the weapon. Even though it may be more efficient, you wouldn't want to try and Slam twice before your next auto unless you have an extremely slow weapon and also either do not have Flurry or are just perfect at timing even when Flurry procs.
Really? I mean the dmg on WW with a 1h is nothing to write home about and hamstring is less than half the rage even if you don't have any of the pvp items which reduce it, so more hits to proc WF or mongoose etc. I assume the rest of your post isn't addressed to me even though it's not seperated since it's about 2h.
I have been very interested in this thread and have been 31/30 since i hit 70. I have loved it, its great for pvp, and for PVE with slam it seemed to deal a decent amount of damage. So I grabbed a few healers and went out to one of grull's sons. It was the son near the Blades Edge Arena. I choose him because he didnt stun but would hit me hard enough to have plenty of rage.
During both attempts I was buffed with Windfurry, Blessing of Might, Kings, 20 strength food, Improved BS and mark of the wild.
I used the same abilities with both fights to try and keep the data as close as possible. Below are the results i got
So just from a purely same situation same abilities except for Rampage and the cooldown on whirlwind my overall DPS went up by 120! to me thats insane.
I have Tier 4 dps gear, with some arena gear, a gorehowl, not super great gear but a fair amount of good epics.
From these results its apparent to me that a 2h fury build is far superior to mortal strike 31/30. This also a standpoint for pure PVE dps.
On a side not i also picked up improved thunderclap and improved demo shout because I feel as a dps warrior its partially my job to help the raid and tanks with debuffs.
I also understand this is not a perfect environment, and these values are pretty rough, like in the MS output there was a pally thing going on... but I still have a hard time believing 120 dps difference was not just a fluke.
Sample size. On the Fury test you had about 40% of your Slams and Bloodthirsts crit, on the Arms test you had about 25% of your Mortal Strikes and Slams crit. On the Fury test you gained Enrage 8 times, on the Arms test 5 times. Etc. You're going to need about 20 minutes of sampling for the random elements to start smoothening out, which either means boring your healers to tears or doing a week or so of raid testing with your builds. 120 dps of difference is well within the range of a fluke for 3 minutes worth of fighting.
Really? I mean the dmg on WW with a 1h is nothing to write home about and hamstring is less than half the rage even if you don't have any of the pvp items which reduce it, so more hits to proc WF or mongoose etc. I assume the rest of your post isn't addressed to me even though it's not seperated since it's about 2h.
Hamstring is 63 damage for 10 rage, or 6.3 damage per rage.
Whirlwind with let's say a Gladiator's cleaver (1h Arena weapon) and 2000 AP (very low AP) would be 580 damage on average for 25 rage, or 23 damage per rage. Double, triple, quadruple the damage and efficiency where applicable.
Sample size. On the Fury test you had about 40% of your Slams and Bloodthirsts crit, on the Arms test you had about 25% of your Mortal Strikes and Slams crit
That is what I was looking at as well. Go fight the servants in the blasted lands for about 20 - 30 minutes with each spec. Your DPS is obviously going to be inflated due to the level difference, but it should at least show disparity between builds.
Well, after a couple of weeks of getting my ass handed to me on the damage meters, things are starting to look up for me.
I was top DPS on lurker until i pulled agro at 15% and got squished (and still got 4th). And with the....INSANELY good arena season 2 weapons, i should be seeing a BIG dps boost when i replace my fel-edged battle axe with a 97.5 dps off-hand axe. An improvement of 27 stamina and a staggering 14dps on the off-hand alone.
Looks like arena is the place to get fury weapons if you don't have SSC and The Eye on farm now.
I have been following this thread for some time because I have been interested in the 2H fury.
Yesterday I specd 20/41/0 to give it a try. I ran a combat logger so I could look at my combat after our Gruul kill. I found a lot of peaks and valleys with my DPS and not because of moving on the shatter. but I am happy with the crits and hard hits I do get.
My question to those that are running 2H Fury is whats your attack sequence look like? I would like a more level DPS output and I really did not have a sequence last night.
Question for those advocating a MS/WW Slam rotation for a 31/30/0. What is your dps on average? If possible give a specific fight, and please include group composition. (Lurker seems popular, I float around 900-950 on him with a resto shaman)
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much...
Go fight the servants in the blasted lands for about 20 - 30 minutes with each spec. Your DPS is obviously going to be inflated due to the level difference, but it should at least show disparity between builds.
Keep in mind that stats aren't inflated proprtionately against those servants. You don't gain AP in the same manner that your crit rate will improve, giving higher flurry uptime while BT only benefits from lower armor. It's not a great test, even for relative differences.
Question for those advocating a MS/WW Slam rotation for a 31/30/0. What is your dps on average? If possible give a specific fight, and please include group composition. (Lurker seems popular, I float around 900-950 on him with a resto shaman)
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much...
I posted my results with group comp last page. It's in image form so it's nice and shiney.
Awww, where'd crazypie go? Looks like he bailed after the WWS showed 2h+blood frenzy > Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters)
Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights.
The rest usually around 1k or a little below
Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target
To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average.
4% of 950 is 38.
38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy
DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps
That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights.
Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions.
I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights.
Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about.
"1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury.
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
Have you tried the Spreadsheet? there is a field that tells you which rage dump is optimal given gear, buffs, and spec., especially for dual-wielding. Actually...why are you posting that question in this thread, anyway?
Have you tried the Spreadsheet? there is a field that tells you which rage dump is optimal given gear, buffs, and spec., especially for dual-wielding. Actually...why are you posting that question in this thread, anyway?
Posts 226-228 are what brought this question up, and the spreadsheet script errored when i tried to run calcs.
Bal, took another look, I can't seem to locate your dps on that fight, just over all damage, as lurker can go on forever, no idea what your dps is…I can assume that it was a 8-10minute kill since there is 5minutes left on your kings. 1038dps (9minute kill) with a ret pld/fdruid/restoshaman
I did notice that you got in 27 executes? Not sure if I am reading that right…I am looking at my last lurker kill and I only had 13 with 2 misses. Are you swapping to 1handers? or a swapping to a faster 2hander for the last 20%?
This thread exists cause the answer to that question isnt that simple.
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro.
This thread exists cause the answer to that question isnt that simple.
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro.
But the answer IS that simple
talented, Slam adds 140 damage with a .5 second cast time for 15 rage.
talented, Cleave adds 82 damage to your Next Melee attack and attacks an additional target for 20 rage.
talented, Heroic Strike adds 208 damage to your Next Melee attack and CAUSES A HIGH AMOUNT OF THREAT for 12 rage.
Now if you go nuts spamming Heroic Strike and ensure the whole time you're below the main tank... then suddenly get a big crit string and your aggro jumps, you're losing out on much more DPS by BEING DEAD then spending a little more rage and staying low on threat.
I find I get a lot more DPS by being alive and not sucking up B-Rezes and staying fully buffed the whole fight while PACING myself and DPSing RESPONSIBLY.
Yes, we all want to top the damage meter, but much like a balance between hit - crit - AP, you need to balance rage - damage - threat.
talented, Slam adds 140 damage with a .5 second cast time for 15 rage.
talented, Cleave adds 82 damage to your Next Melee attack and attacks an additional target for 20 rage.
talented, Heroic Strike adds 208 damage to your Next Melee attack and CAUSES A HIGH AMOUNT OF THREAT for 12 rage.
Now if you go nuts spamming Heroic Strike and ensure the whole time you're below the main tank... then suddenly get a big crit string and your aggro jumps, you're losing out on much more DPS by BEING DEAD then spending a little more rage and staying low on threat.
I find I get a lot more DPS by being alive and not sucking up B-Rezes and staying fully buffed the whole fight while PACING myself and DPSing RESPONSIBLY.
Yes, we all want to top the damage meter, but much like a balance between hit - crit - AP, you need to balance rage - damage - threat.
Thats all right and true, but its situational and not a good reason to use cleave. Use it if you need to scale back; but by no means consider it a replacement for HS, your only limiting yourself there.
Watch KTM; if you need to trade out heroic for cleave to reduce your aggro go for it, but cleave should not be replacing HS entirely in your cycle, infact if you are getting that close to the tank you should prob hold back a bit all together.
Any dps worth their salt should be able to judge their threat levels vs the tank and know if they will be pulling aggro in a few hits or not. A "huge crit string" is not an acceptable excuse for pulling aggro. You shouldn't sit 2k threat below the MT the whole time, your just inviting disaster along.
Edit: Also would like to point out that not many fury warriors would spec for Imp Cleave, although it is a great talent for Arms/Fury.
Experience is the big factor with threat IMO. If you know it's virtually impossible to pull threat (like prince for example) then you can HS to your heart's content. If it's a touchy fight like tidewalker (we killed lurker last night for the first time, and got some tries on this guy) then you might want to lay off of the high agro abilities in favor of a more moderated dps ability like cleave, slam or hamstring.
On a side note: I know a lot of warriors and rogues are blacksmiths. How many of you plan on switching to armorsmith for the breastplate and just getting arena weapons? The weapons are very similar to T3 crafted stuff, and the breastplate is a nice upgrade over my doomplate chest ATM. This also allows me to pass on the T4/T5 chest and save DKP for the rings/neck/trinket i want (Silly rogues trying to steal my gear!).
Thats all right and true, but its situational and not a good reason to use cleave. Use it if you need to scale back; but by no means consider it a replacement for HS, your only limiting yourself there.
Watch KTM; if you need to trade out heroic for cleave to reduce your aggro go for it, but cleave should not be replacing HS entirely in your cycle, infact if you are getting that close to the tank you should prob hold back a bit all together.
Any dps worth their salt should be able to judge their threat levels vs the tank and know if they will be pulling aggro in a few hits or not. A "huge crit string" is not an acceptable excuse for pulling aggro. You shouldn't sit 2k threat below the MT the whole time, your just inviting disaster along.
Edit: Also would like to point out that not many fury warriors would spec for Imp Cleave, although it is a great talent for Arms/Fury.
And slowing down your DPS does nothing but set you back a couple notches in total.
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter?
This thread exists cause the answer to that question isnt that simple.
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro.
For 2H and comparing Slam - the single best attack you have - with HS - the single worst attack you have - the answer is definitely that simple.
HS does 208 damage for 15 rage + losing all the rage on your next swing. Call it a 25 rage cost for 8 DPR.
Slam does 140 + DPS * (Weapon Speed - .5 - latency) damage, which is about 900 (low estimate). It costs 15 rage + losing (.5 + latency)/weapon speed of your next swing, call it 17 rage total for 53 DPR.
So, a Slam is about 6 times as good. Without counting the fact that it lets you proc Flurry, any trinkets you happen to have, Winfury and so on an additional time, which is going to add even more damage.
I guess the basic misconception leading to anyone ever hitting HS when wielding a 2h is that the resulting number is big. And hey, if the number is big, that means the dps must be ... or not. The important thing to remember is that just because the combat log says "[You] Heroic Strike [Foo] 1000" doesn't mean you actually did 1000 damage from hitting HS. You'd have done 800 of that damage on an autoswing anyhoo, now you did 200 damage more at the cost of not getting any rage from that hit. Yay. HS is crap for 2h. Don't touch it. You should even start spamming Slam before using HS, and Slamspam is horrible DPR compared to using Slam in a timed manner.
And slowing down your DPS does nothing but set you back a couple notches in total.
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter?
I would suppose it depends on the fight and your particular tanks amounts of threat.
The only fight I really have this kind of problem with where I need to stop my cycle is Gruul. I would assume Leotheras would have problems but we have no fought him yet. Obviously Morogrim would provide problems, luckly there are other targets available however.
But fights like Magtheridon, even Hydross' quick transitions, I haven't had the problem staying near top dps with HS going. Your hunter(s, we only ever take one-two tops) should keep MD'ing the tank, you should have Salv, unless your putting out over 1k tps consistantly with salvation running, you shouldn't have a problem, but again I would suppose that is based off of your tank.
06/15/07, 12:26 AM
