okay, so the human expertise stacks, but why should the expertise granted from an axe in the OH of an Orc not apply on the MH which is for example a sword.
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
If the Racial only adds Expertise on a hand in which an axe is, this would mean, that the Expertisecalculations for both hands are seperated, but i can´t believe this.
But if my thoughts are totally wrong, please tell me, and if possible with some clear tests or evidence.
Thanks
Boss mobs have about 340ap + 135 CoR - 420 imp demo = 55ap = 2.4% of boss base melee damage.
Thanks, Pitbuller and Moguul. Had no idea that was how it worked.
Seems 5/5 Imp Demo is pointless in PvE if you're not running with CoR then. Weird that a talent quits being useful after 2 points spent (unless you combine it with another class ability). That can't really be working as intended. It has some use in pvp of course.
Thanks, Pitbuller and Moguul. Had no idea that was how it worked.
Seems 5/5 Imp Demo is pointless in PvE if you're not running with CoR then. Weird that a talent quits being useful after 2 points spent (unless you combine it with another class ability). That can't really be working as intended. It has some use in pvp of course.
Then use CoR.
CoR is huge for physical DPS in a raid environment and well worth giving up UW for.
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
As it seems to work now the game checks if you're wielding an axe at all, and if you do you get +5 Expertise. Humans get a check for swords, and then another one for maces, so currently they can get +10.
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
Hello DPS warriors, I have a rather simple question.
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course)
Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc.
Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things.
I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience!
Pretty much exactly what you said, biggest MS Ive seen is about 4700 no Survival hunter in the raid, 4900 with. I use mongoose on my Cats edge, no matter what people say I like the 4% crit chance more then the increase in damage executioner gives, and it has worked out very well, Wow Web Stats Thats a teron with no survival hunter, could have been better.
Wow, speak of the devil! You're exactly who I was wondering what was going on with, Cruor. Well, that and more. This is really going to go off on a tangent quick and I already have the answer which I assumed right on originally.
The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks
Hey Cruorr, could you provide some insight as to how you DPS?
Your damage breakdown seems to differ significantly from my own and I normally use a white->slam-> instant cycle. What I find really interesting though is your use of Heroic Strike. I have always believed it was too rage inefficient to be used as many times as you do. Are you rage capped for most of the fight because I noticed you have a very high percentages.
Here's a copy of my most recent Teron kill. I did really well cause I got lucky with crits.
Hello DPS warriors, I have a rather simple question.
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course)
Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc.
Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things.
I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience!
Thanks
I'm not sure if that Drow wws is fake or not, but sure is impressive. Personally I wouldn't rule out getting 5-6k numbers, maybe it's possible in an optimal scenario. I can share you my own numbers, which also fall between the 4/4,5k range, but without a feral druid in raid, or survival hunter, so it's possible to do better. One thing that also helped me was hacking the swing timer as detailed on the 2h weapon thread. Here.
1350 passive armor pen is about the most youll want for dual wield, otherwise youll push the armor below 0 and get a reduced effect from exec. i dont personally think it would be worth 2 exec ever, but im not a fury expert.
yesterday in BT with a 33/28 spec i got 2 5500-5560 MSs in a row with all my buffs up. also a 5300 and a 5400 before the big 2 (all the same fight within 30 seconds, reck was up so it was 4 crit ms in a row), orc racial, expose weakness and boss at 0 armor.
cruorr, i still dont understand you gaining 1400 dmg on your top ms crit from a 9% dmg buff and expose weakness/armor tho, there HAS to be something else. i belive rogue expose is like 400? pen over sunders? doesnt seem like thats quite enough, did you upgrade gear also? REALLY bad luck the previous 2 weeks?
I have a lot of math in the executioner/mongoose thread.
Short version: using my current gear(420 passive Armor Pen) my spreadsheet gives the following
Assume: Executioner and Mongoose are 1.15 PPM as roughly shown in the Proc thread
MH Uptime: ~41.4%
OH Uptime: ~27.7%
DW Uptime: ~57.6%
So it comes down to if you would rather have that OH mongoose or an extra ~16% executioner uptime. DPS spreadsheets show that is about the same dps, so I would call personal preference. I like DW executioner because I plan on getting more Armor Pen and like smoother rage generation.
1350 passive armor pen is about the most youll want for dual wield, otherwise youll push the armor below 0 and get a reduced effect from exec. i dont personally think it would be worth 2 exec ever, but im not a fury expert.
I'm unsure of what to make of the assertion that 1350 passive armor pen is the most you want unless you're trying to imply that Executioner double-stacks (it doesn't).
On a typical raid boss of 6200 armor (Rage Winterchill, for example), with 520*5 armor reduced via sunders, 610 via faerie fire, and 800 via curse of recklessness (should you be so lucky), the remaining armor is 2190 and thus you are correct that more than (2190 - 840 = 1350) is the most passive armor pen you want to maximize the use of executioner...
Low armor boss is 6200
5x Sunder = 2600
Faerie Fire = 610
Curse of Recklessness = 800
Executioner = 840
So the boss would have 1350 armor left before your gear. Now all those may not be always up, and there are bosses with more armor so the max is higher but 1350 is pretty high for passive armor pen as it is.
Wow, speak of the devil! You're exactly who I was wondering what was going on with, Cruor. Well, that and more. This is really going to go off on a tangent quick and I already have the answer which I assumed right on originally.
The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks
It is not bugged or edited. We got darkmoon buff + a survial hunter which we never had before. So I had 9% increased damage from darkmoon + survival hunter. We also had a feral druid tank and improved expose, which is 475 more armor reduction. We just wanted to have some fun and do some insane dps.
So 9% increased damage + 475 armor + 300 atp... Also, maybe i got the 5900 with the str pot.. so thats an extra 132 str (kings) aswell. All that can def push an ms from 4600 - 5900.
I hope to do a "normal" Teron next week finnaly with a survial hunter, and see what I do for dps. I had 2156 and 2130 (I think that the highest for a non darkmoon 33/28 warrior?) with 300 atp from expose weakness I hope for that to go up a lot.
As for my rotation, I do not have one, sorry. I do whatever on the spot. I HS when I have a lot of rage. I do not constantly slam because sometimes I feel its just good to let the swings go rather then slow em down by .6/.7 seconds with slam. I think I have found a good balance. I cant really give an explanation I just "feel" when to slam/ms/WW/HS and when not to.
As for my rotation, I do not have one, sorry. I do whatever on the spot. I HS when I have a lot of rage. I do not constantly slam because sometimes I feel its just good to let the swings go rather then slow em down by .6/.7 seconds with slam. I think I have found a good balance. I cant really give an explanation I just "feel" when to slam/ms/WW/HS and when not to.
That's pretty much what I end up doing, but not really consciously. I tried to keep a good slam rotation going when I tried raiding 33/28, but when DST, Flurry, Sword Spec, Windfury start doing back to back procs it just screws it up altogether. I ended up trying out Serida's no slamming at all method tonight through an SSC vial run and ended up doing pretty much the same as I did when using slams, but it was a lot less "work" to do. I'm sure on some fights I could have eeked out more DPS, but until they make slam "instant", there is always going to be the server/human delay factor that throws down DPS a little.
That's pretty much what I end up doing, but not really consciously. I tried to keep a good slam rotation going when I tried raiding 33/28, but when DST, Flurry, Sword Spec, Windfury start doing back to back procs it just screws it up altogether. I ended up trying out Serida's no slamming at all method tonight through an SSC vial run and ended up doing pretty much the same as I did when using slams, but it was a lot less "work" to do. I'm sure on some fights I could have eeked out more DPS, but until they make slam "instant", there is always going to be the server/human delay factor that throws down DPS a little.
This might be a stupid question, but I'm curious because I've been toying with the idea of going 33/28.
Are you seeing these kinds of results (not slamming, or slamming when it "feels right" to slam instead of after every single swing), because you've hit some sort of gear threshold that causes a two-handed build to start performing exceptionally well? Or was I just Doing It Wrong(tm) when I tried an MS build?
My experiences with MS have generally had my sustained dps significantly lower than what I can do as Fury. I've read a lot in this thread that advises raids to favor 33/28 Blood Frenzy warriors as the first or only dps warrior in a raid, and I'm currently the only dps warrior in my raid. I also see WWS being posted with really high dps from two-handed warriors, and people saying that MS can do almost as much damage as Fury. Is this related to scaling, and only true in T6 content?
If I could switch to 33/28 sword and do "almost as much" damage as what I do now, my raid's dps would go up, we run pretty physical heavy. For some reason we have a lot of pretty good hunters. I wouldn't top the meter anymore but if if it helped the raid as a whole kill bosses faster/kill bosses we're currently struggling with, I'd be happy anyway.
So, I guess I'm asking, what's a realistic goal of personal dps for a 33/28 warrior using a sword (probably the Lionheart Champ or Executioner as it's the best, or one of the best, weapons readily available to me. S3 is out of the question, my arena teams aren't even close to 1850), in early T5 content? Assume here that I'm new to the slam rotation and that I'm a reasonably competent player and raider.
I wouldn't say its a stupid question, its just hard to answer, try looking for WWS of the same gear level/raid dps that feature MS warriors, compare how many skills they use compared to you etc.
I cant tell you the dps you should be doing. I can tell you that for MS Armor pen and high crit are very important. You arent going to see great numbers with out BT grade gear. A Windfury shaman is an absolute requirement, and a feral druid helps a lot. You learn a good rotation just by doing it over and over, and your dps will get better.
I am a human and in my character screen it only says 5 expertise whether i have a mace/sword in the MH or OH or both. Currently I am having trouble getting rid of the Talon of the Phoenix but it would help to know exactly how the racial is working. Can you really get 10 expertise from the racial? Do you have to use a sword and a mace? Does it work with two maces or two swords? I have The Rod of the Sun king and the Swiftsteel Bludgeon and i bet the 5 expertise would make up the slight loss from having a slow OH but i need someone who knows to catch me up. The spread sheet doesn't really help in this case b/c i am sure i am getting the racial bonus in both hands.
I am a human and in my character screen it only says 5 expertise whether i have a mace/sword in the MH or OH or both. Currently I am having trouble getting rid of the Talon of the Phoenix but it would help to know exactly how the racial is working. Can you really get 10 expertise from the racial? Do you have to use a sword and a mace? Does it work with two maces or two swords? I have The Rod of the Sun king and the Swiftsteel Bludgeon and i bet the 5 expertise would make up the slight loss from having a slow OH but i need someone who knows to catch me up. The spread sheet doesn't really help in this case b/c i am sure i am getting the racial bonus in both hands.
This is my first time posting on these forums so don't be too harsh on me if my assumptions on reading WWS stats are wrong.
My gear consists of SSC/TK gear,some badge rewards and I dual wield the S1 honor Sword with Fool's Bane in my off hand. As a human, my character screen states 10 expertise. With weapon mastery, that should result in a -4.5% chance for opponents to dodge my attacks. I'm hit capped for specials (approx 130 hit rating with 3/3 precision) so the only chance for me to 'miss' a mob should be about 5.8% from the dodges.
So here's my damage breakdown from my guild's SSC run from a few days ago. Jojoba - WWS
All my misses came from dodges and parries (Which could probably have been avoided by slightly better positioning) and topped out at about 2%, 1% of which were dodges which seems to be as expected with 10 expertise.. Even though this is quite a small sample of hits, I'm sure it's indicative that the expertise racial bonuses from sword/mace combos on human warriors are stacking.
There is one other dual wielding fury warrior in my guild with about 200 hit rating and 0 precision and it's quite easy to see the difference in terms of misses on specials even on individual bosses (wws is harsh on him since he off tanked more encounters) and the comparable hit rate on white melee attacks.
I'm considering maxing out my expertise by getting the brooch of deftness (currently using Worgen Claw Necklace from KZ) as i can clearly see the benefits to my white hits as well as specials.
ps. any comments as to my damage breakdown as I'm still trying to learn how to maximise my DPS after changing roles from tanking would be appreciated.
Okay I have a question for all you experts out there. I am currently using the Wicked Edge of the Planes (2.7spd,97.6 dps) in my main and Fury (2.6spd,95.6dps) in my Offhand. While doing ZA again, the Rage (2.6spd,95.6dps) dropped. I was wondering if equal spd weapons still proc'd an extra Flurry attack and if so, would it make sense to switch my main hand to the Rage to gain the extra Flurry attack at the cost of only 2dps on the main hand until I find a weapon with 2.7 spd and eaual if not better dps then Wicked Edge?
I also find that in events where I am on add duty (ex. Vashj a enhance shammy and I take care of Nagas) I like a fast offhand. I was using the Prowlers Blade last week when we finally down'd Vashj and no one wanted the Fang of Vashj (1.8spd,100.3dps) so I took it. Anyone else finding the fast offhand better in situations where they are changing targets a lot? Mainly because its tough to keep a good BT/WW rotation going when you have to run around a lot.
I'm pretty sure that the 10 expertise from using sword+mace as a human is not intended and will probably be fixed. That said 5 expertise is worth about 10 dps in my gear and using a spreadsheet (going from 1153 total dps to 1163). Whether this is more than what you get from using a slow weapon as offhand of course depends on which weapons you're comparing. If I compare using the S2 slow vs fast sword in OH I get a dps difference of about 12 in the same gear (but for the OH). The true dps gain from using a slow OH is probably somewhat less however, the spreadsheet does not model the effect of miss streaks on your rage generation -> cycle maintenance. Anyway, to me it seems that 5 expertise is worth about the same as slow-fast OH.
Havocdemon, the effect of using matched speed on flurry uptime has not been proven (at least not in the Flurry mechanics thread on these boards), if anyone has a link to some proper made tests on this I would be very interested. But as long as I haven't seen any hard evidence for this I don't believe this effect is real.
If it is a real effect I think the effect would be to add another proccing attack to the flurry uptime calculations (which would give something like 7-10% more flurry uptime for DW). This gives a dps increase on the order of 1% (in my gear, about 12 dps) using a spreadsheet. If I look at the spreadsheet results for Wicked edge vs Rage I get about 10 more total dps from Wicked edge.
01/09/08, 7:46 AM
