I would suppose it depends on the fight and your particular tanks amounts of threat.
The only fight I really have this kind of problem with where I need to stop my cycle is Gruul. I would assume Leotheras would have problems but we have no fought him yet. Obviously Morogrim would provide problems, luckly there are other targets available however.
But fights like Magtheridon, even Hydross' quick transitions, I haven't had the problem staying near top dps with HS going. Your hunter(s, we only ever take one-two tops) should keep MD'ing the tank, you should have Salv, unless your putting out over 1k tps consistantly with salvation running, you shouldn't have a problem, but again I would suppose that is based off of your tank.
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike. So if that's possible (which it more than obviously is) why would you even want to RISK the additional threat?
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous?
Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank.
And slowing down your DPS does nothing but set you back a couple notches in total.
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter?
Cleave actually generates extra threat, 130 vs 196 for Heroic Strike (source here, could find an EJ thread about it but it goes well in line with the level 60 values in Kenco: A Guide To Threat.).
So, maths incoming, what you're really doing is choosing an ability with about 33% less innate threat, but at a talented 56% lower DPR (7.7 vs 17.33.., Cleave does 154 extra damage talented, not 82). If you add the rage loss on next swing to the rage cost the DPR will look a bit different depending on how hard you hit, but HS will always cost 8 less rage and do over 120 more damage.
Another interesting perspective though is that in a threat-sensitive fight what you really want to do, when you have rage for it, is to maximize your Damage per Threat, DPT. Here you only need to look at the additional damage each attack does since the base damage is the same anyway.
Cleave: 154 damage for 130 threat => 1.18 DPT
Heroic Strike: 208 damage for 196 threat => 1.06 DPT
So, while Cleave does 26% less damage per swing and that at 56% lower damage per rage, you do 11% more damage per threat. This means that in most situations HS is the clear winner between the two and even on threat-sensitive fights you can do very slightly more damage per rage while being much more inefficient.
Edit: Hamstring generates extra threat too, removed bad statement which assumed it didn't.
The EJ thread seems to be wrong, http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php supports WoWWiki's data and was last updated yesterday. The important thing still is that Cleave has quite a bit of innate threat.
I've been wondering about exactly that problem, the heroic strike threat vs damage issue, that we even now, as dual wield dps warriors, runs into.
[SKIP the wall of text]
My question is, do you have rampage in your build? If yes, then how do you deal with the "distraction" rampage caused because you need to keep rampage up?
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike. So if that's possible (which it more than obviously is) why would you even want to RISK the additional threat?
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous?
Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank.
And a dead warrior does no DPS.
Same as any dps class, risk vs reward. Yea its a greater risk, but its a bigger damage gain for the risk. If we were running without KTM, sure, same as how alot of mages would downrank, but whats the point here? Know your threat. Idk, I don't often have a problem anticipating my threat, what you say has merit, but I don't think its the best way to go.
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike.
I don't really understand why people keep bringing this up as an arguement. The first thing such a relative statement like this makes me think is that your guild's DPS are underperforming, not that you are elite. Am I wrong in thinking this, or how do you figure?
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike. So if that's possible (which it more than obviously is) why would you even want to RISK the additional threat?
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous?
Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank.
And a dead warrior does no DPS.
Because we want to do more than just topping damagemeters. Risking for more dps itself that is, not for a better standing. If you are so scared of aggroing that it forces you out of optimum, you might as well reroll a hunter.
When tanking multiple mobs cleave gives better tps than heroic strike, but I don't replace my heroic strike button with cleave when I tank more than one mob. I just hit my cleave button instead. Same goes for dps purposes; instead of totally replacing your heroic strike, better think of a more dynamic method. I guarantee that you will not lose your top dps spot.
If an unlucky crit string is so dangerous, then stay 2 crit strings behind the tank. In theory such condition exists I agree; however, I never died to an "unlucky string of crits". But I never faced an undead whose wotf is on cooldown either.
I don't really understand why people keep bringing this up as an arguement. The first thing such a relative statement like this makes me think is that your guild's DPS are underperforming, not that you are elite. Am I wrong in thinking this, or how do you figure?
I brought it up more for you to see the average damage on my abilities/which ones I used.
Also, my total damage is up there. If that is less than what the top 5 in most guilds usually produce then yes, my guild's DPS is lacking.
@ Plea: Aggro is like a Hippopotamus. People love looking at it, but more people in Africa are killed each year by Hippos than by Alligators.
So you can say you aren't afraid of aggro, but if you don't respect it you'll get burned.
Err. He's a 2H warrior. Heroic Strike has absolutely no use for him. A HS is 208 damage for 15 rage + swing gain, which is 10 DPR if we're being excessively nice.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er.
HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference.
There are very few encounters where you can stay close enough to a tank on threat to be able to die from a few crits, I can't even think of one. It really only applies on encounters with adds, such as lurker (I usually switch add at 50% so I can go all out all the time) where tanks can't build enough threat in such a short time. Tell me, which encounters are you having problems with? I can't really think of one I can't go full out all the time on (after tank getting misdirected and hitting a shield slam in the beginning). I have never replaced heroic strike with cleave on a single target and I very rarely die from overaggro on a boss.
Here is a question that has probably already been answered elsewhere, but since we are talking about Heroic Strike and TPS/DPT I'll ask here. Now I am under the assumption that when you crit a HS, it's the total damage done x 200% (220%), but what about the innate threat portion of the ability, does it remain static and only the actual damage portion is doubled? It doesn't really matter that much for me right now, because unflasked and without trinket procs and such, I am rarely, if ever in a situation where rage is so free flowing that it I can just "Heroic Spam".
Err. He's a 2H warrior. Heroic Strike has absolutely no use for him. A HS is 208 damage for 15 rage + swing gain, which is 10 DPR if we're being excessively nice.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er.
HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference.
Then again, not like rage gen, and thus, DPR is an issue with the amount of damage he was taking if you look at that damagemeter parse - I guess that's the other way of going about it, other than intelligent rage management and DPR/DPS maximization, is to cheese rage gen (I was particularily guilty of this pre-BC, in my early fury days ... and learned my lesson in Naxx.) Looking back, I probably would kick myself out of the raid today though if I was going about it like that still
There are very few encounters where you can stay close enough to a tank on threat to be able to die from a few crits, I can't even think of one. It really only applies on encounters with adds, such as lurker (I usually switch add at 50% so I can go all out all the time) where tanks can't build enough threat in such a short time. Tell me, which encounters are you having problems with? I can't really think of one I can't go full out all the time on (after tank getting misdirected and hitting a shield slam in the beginning). I have never replaced heroic strike with cleave on a single target and I very rarely die from overaggro on a boss.
Any somewhat decent tank should be able to get sufficient snap aggro right off the bat - some "gimmick" fights are indeed Lurker and I guess Leotheras, but on that one I feel like melee is shafted half the time anyways. Thing is though, you can taunt Lurker. You can taunt Al'ar. In most cases the tank can establish some kind of comfortable aggro without any issues. I think in all our Lurker kills (and wipes) we've maybe had two occurrences of melee aggro pulling, and my guess would be that that was our enhancement shaman on both accounts. A shield slam/HS/revenge combo should pretty much get any mob stuck on you to the extent that DPS can start opening up anyway. Even without neccessarily having the MD crutch/aid.
As an addendum: on any fight where aggro is a potential concern to the extent where I feel that a large number of people would have to hold back due to limited TPS generated by tanks or whatever, I throw a shaman in the tanking group. There's effectively no way of pulling aggro off of that on Gruul or Void Reaver w/ a Heroism+Windfuried tanking group.
Last edited by Teez : 06/16/07 at 8:08 AM.
Reason: small addition
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights.
Thought I'd reply to this again for warriors having a difficult time with DPS. After working hard to perfect my DPS cycles, I effectively jumped over 100 DPS this week. I posted before having only hit around 760 DPS on the Magtheridon encounter, but this week I was hovering at 900 DPS before execute range which I died(21%) due to an unlucky cleave. I easily could have broke 1000, and this is with 0 gear upgrades from the 760 night. What it came down to was perfecting the DPS cycles, while also paying less attention to the raid(I'm raidleader O.O). I didn't think working on cycles alone could upgrade damage by 20%, but it turns out I was wrong!
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
Well said. Especially when you get people saying: "My DPS would have been hire but I died at XX%."
Walking that fine line between effective dps and dead is key, in my opinion. And it'll be interesting to what spec people go for as Season2 rolls around and more plate gear drops from raid instances.
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Thought I'd reply to this again for warriors having a difficult time with DPS. After working hard to perfect my DPS cycles, I effectively jumped over 100 DPS this week. I posted before having only hit around 760 DPS on the Magtheridon encounter, but this week I was hovering at 900 DPS before execute range which I died(21%) due to an unlucky cleave. I easily could have broke 1000, and this is with 0 gear upgrades from the 760 night. What it came down to was perfecting the DPS cycles, while also paying less attention to the raid(I'm raidleader O.O). I didn't think working on cycles alone could upgrade damage by 20%, but it turns out I was wrong!
Out of interest what did you change?
My basic priority order goes something like this (please feel free to critique).
1/ Bloodthirst – For me this is #1 priority. I'll always try to make sure I have free rage and GCD for when the CD comes up on BT.
2/ Whirlwind – It may not be great dmg, but its still an instant (for flurry, mongoose procs) and does the dmg of a MH swing (but yellow!), with no extra threat/rage loss.
3/ Hamstring – If I have spare rage and GCD free ill consider hamstring. I only tend to use this when I have a shaman or flurry has dropped off, otherwise I skip hamstring.
4/ Heroic Strike – Unless threat is an issue, I just start spamming HS when i'm above 40ish rage.
With no TM at the moment I rarely overpower. The exception would be when I get a bad streak and I'm left with low rage and no flurry (usually I switch stance on OP if I get an OH & MH miss/dodge/parry and BT/WW are unavailable. Its I nice way to get flurry back up and running with 1/2 Overpower.
Rampage I tend to refresh slightly early (when it gets below <10 seconds and I have a GCD free). I try and avoid letting it drop off (or leaving it too late and having to use rampage instead of another instant that’s come off cooldown.
I choose to refresh BS every minute (on the off chance a rogue was out of range when I did the last one). So they would have to be out of range twice in a row for BS to drop off … its just too big of a dps upgrade to rogues to risk them loosing it.
Been a busy few weeks with Vashj attempts and working on Al'ar, but I've finally been able to get an enhancement shaman in a group on a random gruul kill. Raid was screwing around pretty hard and nobody was potted, and the casters had pretty crappy group synergy that night, but here's the WWS anyway:
While gazing at the KTM, the druid offtank was generating a good 750-800 TPS. I think I have a screenshot of it that I'll try to post later, but anyway either my salv ran out or I got into melee range too early after a ground slam and I ate a hateful around 60%ish? I got battle rez'd a bit later and just continued to do my normal thing. Overall, an average raid performance but we get things done.
I wish I could post a magtheridon kill but I click cube 3 which is a mile and a half away and I have to tank the 2nd add which makes the fight useless. I also tank priest add in Fathomlord and have to do assist with adds on Morogrim which really sucks :\.
Hopefully, I can get some more screenshots with a flask/food/stone on and an enhancement shaman in the raid eventually.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
I agree that our dps is fine. I just wish we had some sort of group support beyond battle or commanding shout that would make us more valuable in a raid than the one melee group position normally given to us.
I agree that our dps is fine. I just wish we had some sort of group support beyond battle or commanding shout that would make us more valuable in a raid than the one melee group position normally given to us.
I just wish we had some sort of group support beyond battle or commanding shout that would make us more valuable in a raid than the one melee group position normally given to us.
Demoralizing shout, thunderclap, even Piercing Howl. Sunder if you have a bear doing the tanking. While tanks can do this as well, it does give a "dps" warrior more to offer a raid.
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Awww, where'd crazypie go? Looks like he bailed after the WWS showed 2h+blood frenzy > Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters)
Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights.
The rest usually around 1k or a little below
Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target
To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average.
4% of 950 is 38.
38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy
DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps
That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights.
Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions.
I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights.
Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about.
"1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury.
I'm sorry if I can't plan my raids around this board to make sure you always have a WWS up for your entertainment, but go ahead and look at the WWS I posted.
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss.
You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
On a different note, there was a useful post on the warrior forums pertaining to a gear list for dw fury warriors. The point allocation is a bit strange but it's still useful. Kind of rare to find useful stuff on the warrior board.
I have the feeling it's overrating hit and underrating crit but I have yet to read the explanation so I won't pass judgement yet.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/19/07 at 4:31 PM.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere in this thread, but what's currently better for PvE with a 31/30 build- Sword Spec or Axe spec? The spreadsheet only really models DW, and I'm not really sure if 2.1 Sword spec's current incarnation is modeled either.
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it?
My basic priority order goes something like this (please feel free to critique).
1/ Bloodthirst – For me this is #1 priority. I'll always try to make sure I have free rage and GCD for when the CD comes up on BT.
2/ Whirlwind – It may not be great dmg, but its still an instant (for flurry, mongoose procs) and does the dmg of a MH swing (but yellow!), with no extra threat/rage loss.
3/ Hamstring – If I have spare rage and GCD free ill consider hamstring. I only tend to use this when I have a shaman or flurry has dropped off, otherwise I skip hamstring.
4/ Heroic Strike – Unless threat is an issue, I just start spamming HS when i'm above 40ish rage.
With no TM at the moment I rarely overpower. The exception would be when I get a bad streak and I'm left with low rage and no flurry (usually I switch stance on OP if I get an OH & MH miss/dodge/parry and BT/WW are unavailable. Its I nice way to get flurry back up and running with 1/2 Overpower.
Rampage I tend to refresh slightly early (when it gets below <10 seconds and I have a GCD free). I try and avoid letting it drop off (or leaving it too late and having to use rampage instead of another instant that’s come off cooldown.
I choose to refresh BS every minute (on the off chance a rogue was out of range when I did the last one). So they would have to be out of range twice in a row for BS to drop off … its just too big of a dps upgrade to rogues to risk them loosing it.
It wasn't so much a change as it was better rage management as well as concentrating on myself more then the raid. In the past I would forget to hamstring when WW and BT were on CD, and didn't notice little things like rampage not being up or a WF totem being out of range. Trying to lead a raid and micromanage a bunch of attacks and abilities is very difficult.
Last edited by Animosityftw : 06/19/07 at 5:03 PM.
Reason: clarification
06/15/07, 3:41 PM
