Please forgive me if I have missed the answer earlier in this thread, but it is so huge....
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid.
Please forgive me if I have missed the answer earlier in this thread, but it is so huge....
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid.
Could you be specific about the changes you are referring to?
Also, yes, 1 BF warrior is very good to have in the raid.
Could you be specific about the changes you are referring to?
I think he's referring to the talent swap that gave us Sweeping Strikes and took our Death Wish. Also Kobal what makes you think we want to look through the thread to find those answers for you rather than you doing your own damn homework?
For the level of gear that you could get MotB, it's Solarian's Sapphire > Berzerker's Call > Tsunami Talisman > MotB > DST.
I've played with just about every possible gear combination I could find using various versions of the DPS warrior spreadsheet (including the most recent one), and I could not find a single setup that yielded higher dps without a DST than with.
I napkin math'd out the stat budget in this thread dedicated to the DST:
Originally Posted by rayijin
Napkin math on estimated item budgets (DST vs MOTB):
[Madness of the Betrayer]
88 ap passive (+44 over dragonspine)
20 hit passive (+20 over dragonspine)
120 armor penetration (300 * 40% appx uptime)
Now the extra hit, ap and armor penetration are nice, however, look at the total amount of "budget" on each item with these approximations:
Assuming 1 stat budget point = 2 ap = 1 haste rating = 1 hit rating = 7 armor penetration
Appx budget for DST: 20+81= 101
Appx budget for MOTB: 44+20+17= 81
Although hit is the best stat for rogues to stack up to cap, other stats are close to as good overall, and in terms of total stats MOTB is behind significantly (~20%) compared to DST. I think blizzard needs to make the 300 armor penetration passive rather than a proc, then MOTB would basically be tied with DST instead of inferior in terms of budget. Either that or nerf DST again.
First off, what gear do you have access to? Since as a furywarrior, you will notice that gear is everything. You scale better with items then most classes.
Also, if you're "fury", why do you have Mortal Strike instead of Bloodthrist?
I've played with just about every possible gear combination I could find using various versions of the DPS warrior spreadsheet (including the most recent one), and I could not find a single setup that yielded higher dps without a DST than with.
I napkin math'd out the stat budget in this thread dedicated to the DST:
(90ap + 360ap * (20sec/120sec)) * (1 budget / 2 ap) = 75 (possibly less if you save it to be used with other cooldowns such as bloodlust)
My question is: How can you conclude that any trinket (besides solarian's) is better than DST? I'm going to have to see the math on this one.
I personally wouldn't rate 1 haste rating close to 2 ap. Depending on your bloodlust usage, (we typically bloodlust at 98% or so) Berzerker's Call has near maximum cooldown usage, and you can stack it with recklessness/haste potion/drums/bloodlust, as well as stacking it with a haste potion every time you use it.
Then again, what would I know, my guild has only seen 2 DST, 2 Tsunami Talisman, 2 MotB, and I've been outrolled on every Berzerker's Call, so all I have are spreadsheets/personal stat preferences to back it up.
2.2k dps on Teron with a Bloodlust Brooch and an Hourglass of the Unraveler, yay for RNG.
2.2k dps on Teron with a Bloodlust Brooch and an Hourglass of the Unraveler, yay for RNG.
That's a crime against humanity. :<
I've been blessed with good trinkets, but I can never seem to break past 1700 DPS on any fight. 1400-1500 is my norm, 1800 is my high(Rage Winterchill kill).
Don't know what the deal is, normally my group make-up is Shaman/3xRogue/Warrior.
Yeah depending on fight i average between 1100-2k+ dps. But we dont use CoR all the time. And we dont use a feral druid at all. Recently got a enh shaman though.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA.
I've been blessed with good trinkets, but I can never seem to break past 1700 DPS on any fight. 1400-1500 is my norm, 1800 is my high(Rage Winterchill kill).
Don't know what the deal is, normally my group make-up is Shaman/3xRogue/Warrior.
That seems really low for your gear, it's nearly perfect except helm/neck/cloak/bracers/warglaives, and of those it's only minor upgrades. My normal group setup is enhancement shaman/warrior/3x rogue or 2x rogue/feral druid. But alas, our normal tanks have RL issues (Quigon/Edgewalker those bastards) and I haven't been able to DPS in weeks .
Yeah depending on fight i average between 1100-2k+ dps. But we dont use CoR all the time. And we dont use a feral druid at all. Recently got a enh shaman though.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA.
The season three off-hand is one of the best in the game (see this very thread for details, or the spreadhseet thread).
That seems really low for your gear, it's nearly perfect except helm/neck/cloak/bracers/warglaives, and of those it's only minor upgrades. My normal group setup is enhancement shaman/warrior/3x rogue or 2x rogue/feral druid. But alas, our normal tanks have RL issues (Quigon/Edgewalker those bastards) and I haven't been able to DPS in weeks .
Since you guys are talking DPS and mentioned two Drums in the DPS group, I thought I'd throw this recent fight into the picture.
I nabbed 1875 DPS on Teron the other day. Unfortunately I got ghosted at 27% and had to leave at ~12%. I'm guessing I would have broken 1900 or 1950 had I not been ghosted. The catch? I was protection.
hmm that seems very odd Emmy cause i know what your gear is like, because just last week our main Fury warrior got 2.1k DPS on Shade and Teron and he doesnt have as good gear as you buy any means, so idk maybe look at a WWS report and see what you can change or something casue im stunned that thats all you the DPS your doing.
Since you guys are talking DPS and mentioned two Drums in the DPS group, I thought I'd throw this recent fight into the picture.
I nabbed 1875 DPS on Teron the other day. Unfortunately I got ghosted at 27% and had to leave at ~12%. I'm guessing I would have broken 1900 or 1950 had I not been ghosted. The catch? I was protection.
I've never been able to pull off impressive DW DPS, too. I'm using Dragonstrike/Infamy in a Enhancer/3xRogue/me group with lots of drums. My DPS with a 2h sword is the same .
I'm kind of curious what sort of gear you were wearing for that fight.
Also, WTB WWS that works properly before ~10 at night. (Guess we're all trying to use it at the same time while we're at work...)
I don't have a link handy, so I'll go by memory. It's nearly ideal.
- Council Plate helm
- Choker of endless nightmares
- T6 shoulders
- Shadowmoon destroyer's cape
- Midnight BP
- Furious shackles
- Grips of silent justice
- Red belt of battle
- Archimonde plate pants
- RoS Boots
- Band of devastation
- Unstoppable aggressor's ring
- DST, Solarian's sapphire
- Zul'jin ranged bow with AP and armor reduction
- Siphon MH, Swiftsteel OH
While typing this I remembered that I forgot to put a weightstone on my offhand. I'll try to put together the same group and buffs next week and hope I don't get ghosted.
I personally wouldn't rate 1 haste rating close to 2 ap. Depending on your bloodlust usage, (we typically bloodlust at 98% or so) Berzerker's Call has near maximum cooldown usage, and you can stack it with recklessness/haste potion/drums/bloodlust, as well as stacking it with a haste potion every time you use it.
Out of curiosity then you don't use bloodlust for execute range? It depends on the fight, but most of the time I see it being more effective, and the timing really doesnt matter for anyone else but warriors. Even without that I am having a hard time seeing Berserker's, Tsunami, or (depending on gear) even MotB better than DST. With a 20 sec cooldown its somewhere around 20-25% uptime, though I want to double check my logs to verify that.
I don't have a link handy, so I'll go by memory. It's nearly ideal.
- Council Plate helm
- Choker of endless nightmares
- T6 shoulders
- Shadowmoon destroyer's cape
- Midnight BP
- Furious shackles
- Grips of silent justice
- Red belt of battle
- Archimonde plate pants
- RoS Boots
- Band of devastation
- Unstoppable aggressor's ring
- DST, Solarian's sapphire
- Zul'jin ranged bow with AP and armor reduction
- Siphon MH, Swiftsteel OH
While typing this I remembered that I forgot to put a weightstone on my offhand. I'll try to put together the same group and buffs next week and hope I don't get ghosted.
I'm surprised at the relatively low number of devastates you did...35 Heroic Strikes and only 37 Devastates and 15 Whirlwinds? Assuming with a 2.8 MH weapon, i would have assumed roughly twice as many instants as Heroic Strike (if you used every attack), and about 5 times as many devastates as whirlwinds...for something like 35 HS 60 Devastates 15 whirlwinds.
So you had 75 Melee attacks and 35 Heroic Strikes, with 16 "gained one attack through windfury"...So that's around 35+(75-16)*1.5/2.8 ~ 66 Main Hand attacks and only 52 instant attacks?
Like I said, i would have expected on the order of 75 or so instants (once you guess at haste effects like Heroism, drums, etc).
Edit: No improved Shield Block (I assume you're uncrushable?) or Shield Mastery? I find that curious.
I use Furious Shackles instead of Bracers of Eradication too...but it's because I haven't killed Lurker when I was a DPS warrior (vs. a tank)... possibly ever. Some items are just so poorly designed that it makes me cry just a little inside. Like the Belt of Seething Fury? It's like 30 ilevels above Red Belt of Battle...but far far far far worse.
I'm surprised at the relatively low number of devastates you did...35 Heroic Strikes and only 37 Devastates and 15 Whirlwinds? Assuming with a 2.8 MH weapon, i would have assumed roughly twice as many instants as Heroic Strike (if you used every attack), and about 5 times as many devastates as whirlwinds...for something like 35 HS 60 Devastates 15 whirlwinds.
So you had 75 Melee attacks and 35 Heroic Strikes, with 16 "gained one attack through windfury"...So that's around 35+(75-16)*1.5/2.8 ~ 66 Main Hand attacks and only 52 instant attacks?
Like I said, i would have expected on the order of 75 or so instants (once you guess at haste effects like Heroism, drums, etc).
Edit: No improved Shield Block (I assume you're uncrushable?) or Shield Mastery? I find that curious.
Nod, looking back at the numbers it could definitely be optimized. It should probably be a 6-devastate 1-whirlwind rotation. I'm the raid leader so I often find myself distracted and spamming buttons in an obviously inefficient matter. I will try to optimize things a bit more next week.
01/31/08, 12:13 PM
just changed gems so far....and 
(Guess we're all trying to use it at the same time while we're at work...)
