Hidden

Also, before Haste was nerfed, DST got an internal cooldown and Windfury was 'fixed', you could do some awesome DPS using MS, WW and Spamstring with DST as the best trinket by far.

 

Kaan

DST is still clearly better than both of your trinkets, my friend... ^^*

Edit:

Anyone knows, if the human racial expertise-bug persists on the PTR? Would be nice to know for future planing on weapons.

 

Trax

I was thinking about warriors post 2.4, I am raiding slam atm. 33/28
How would pure arms measure up to that post 2.4?, was thingin of tryin endless rage and stack up on +haste items and see how that does, any ideas?

 

• LodeRunner

I fail to see how any deep Arms talents, aside from the 4% damage one whose name escapes me, will have any use in a raid setting.

 

jpcesar

this issue may seem a little outdated but, regarding deathwish vs rampage discussion most of people stands out speaking about rampage as it was a constant 250 AP buff.

well in fact you have to renew the rampage at perfect timmings to diminish the rage loss and you have to constantly be thinking of the rampage renew, losing focus on the combos.

should i give this build a try?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

20% each 3 min on a good combo hits would be more than what i use from rampage, even losing the weapon mastery imo.

what u think?

 

Emeraude

You think [Dragonspine Trophy] is better then both [Berserker's Call] and [Tsunami Talisman]? Care to explain why exactly?

 

• Mjollnir

Because it is worth more each time you upgrade any single item on your person. The only answer I can think of.

 

Shha

Probably math explains it.

a) DST. I have this trinket myself and i made countless tests with it + ran uptime meters during actual raids. It procs about instantly when the gcd is up which makes the uptime actually HIGHER then theoretical (10sec/10+25 of hidden cooldown =2/7). Theoretical uptime is a bit over 28%, in reality is closer to 30% because it procs within few sec of fight, then right after cooldown. On shorter fights its up slightly more then the 28%. Still, lets assume 28% only. This makes the trinket:

40 ap 28%*325= 91 haste.

b) TT. internal CD of 45 sec. 10% chance to proc of crit hit i believe (Thats an assumption, but close to what i see). Its expected to proc around 10 sec+ after internal cd is up meaning its 10/65= ~15% uptime. In fact i read on forums here the proc turns out to be about equal to 0.8PPM. If you take this calculations then the uptime is 8/60 =13,(3)%. Assuming 14% uptime the trinket ends up being

10 hit 38 crit 340*14%= 48 ap.

c) Berskers call 90 ap passive. 360 1/6 of the time. Assuming you time it perfectly with haste pots we can assume that the 360 is amplified by (i assume haste affects 70% of your dmg) 30%+70%*125% = 117.5% factor. Heroism impact depends on the length of the fight. Overall i like to assume the impact of the trinket is 25% more because of "comboing" it with other cooldowns. It ends up being

90+125%*1/6*360 ap = 165 ap.

removing the 40 ap from all trinkets we get :

91 haste VS 10 hit 38 crit 8 ap VS 125 ap

using MY sep values of :

haste = 3ap
hit = 1.4 ap
crit = 2.4 ap



273 ap vs 113 ap vs 125 ap

It turns out DST is twice as good as the other two trinkets.

Possible things to influence the results:

a) Gear/Raid composition. It was calculated using MY raid/gear. We have every possible melee buff always up as i noted few posts above. My crit is over 50% (although slightly) average ap is probably at 4500 counting hunter debuffs on mobs etc. This boosts the value of stats that I neither have on gear nor possible to boost through raid setup - aka haste. The only raid buff boosting haste is obviously heroism/haste pots. Note that we dont rotate heroisms so thats not above average for us. If someone raids without totem twisted GoA/feral/ret paladin, then his crit will be valued a lot higher (those together add to over 11% extra crit , and very often people dont have them).

b) For slam warrior sometimes extra haste from DST , might interrupt slam rotations or just put the weapon below minimum speed. Again im DW fury.

 

Kaan

I think Shha's arguments are very right. Nevertheless, DST is since EVER the best trinket when you use the warrior spreadsheets, this is evidence enough, I think. You need to proof that the spreadsheets are wrong - otherwise DST is still the best trinket, and by a very solid margin.

Also I guess you are underestimating haste and therefore DST... My personal thinking about haste is: it gives whole extra attacks over time. AP und Crit only make your attacks a bit stronger. So haste is a very strong stat that shouldn't be underestmated.

 

• LodeRunner

Well of course in THEORY haste is really good. No one disputes the fact that with 1% haste you'd get an extra swing in ever 100. In practice it's just too expensive, taking up other things on item budgets that would be better left as armor pen/str/crit. I don't know the real numbers off the top of my head and I'm at work right now but let me just pose a theoretical question to you:
If you had two identical pieces of armor with the same ilvl that had the same str/hit/sta/armor pen and the only difference was one offered 3% crit and the other offered 1% haste, which would you choose?
Yes, my numbers are intentionally skewed for the question because I'm trying to make the point that haste costs too much comparatively. The real difference is much smaller but still there. I would also like you to ponder that armor pen/str/crit increase the damage of ALL your attacks. Haste does not improve the damage from Bloodthirst/Whirlwind.

For Rogues this is still pretty good because of Combat Potency. We don't have Combat Potency. We have Flurry.

 

Quixotic

Haste is still hugely overrated imo. Sure, you get faster attack speed, but at high levels of gear you don't need the rage, and it just becomes another HS every 100 swings, versus every one of your 100 swings doing more damage/critting more often. I already have enough rage to basically spam my HS button the entire fight and never have to watch my rage to keep enough for bloodthirst/ww. Of course there will be periods of dodge/miss streaks but the point is at high levels of gear the passive crit on TT, and the ability to stack Berzerker's Call with bloodlust/haste potion/drums/recklessness makes it far superior to a haste proc.

 

Katrael

Actually haste isn't really that expensive. I believe that it takes the same amount of haste rating for 1% as it does hit rating, ~15.8. Crit on the other hand is just about 22 per point. It's pretty easy to see how someone who has a 65-70% portion of they're damage coming from autoattack/HS to value haste as close to, or greater than crit.

With every raid buff/debuff you can stack to boost melee your AP is going to be through the roof, and crit won't be far behind. This leaves armor pen, but honestly, looking at the stats on 2.4 itemization it looks like getting to a relatively high armor pen level while still gaining a large portion of haste won't be too difficult.

 

Amorpheus

A Slam rotation is based around the swing timer. Haste directly reduces that swing timer. It does come at the cost of the other stats, in addition to aversely affecting rage generation: you swing faster, but lose crit, generate less rage per hit, while doing the rotation that more often. So stacking it is something I would refrain from, especially since good items with haste are rare. [Cloak of Fiends] is very nice, and there's some leather/mail items that are efficient.

"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted.
"So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?" asked the man in black.
"I'm not left-handed."

 

Shha

Well in your scenario of course the crit piece is better. Im not sure why even compare it like this though. 3% crit =66 crit rating. Ratings are ALL the same cost in item budget. So the other item would have 66 haste rating which equals to a bit over FOUR percent haste. So the real question would be - 3% crit or 4% haste, not 3% crit or 1% haste.

Additionally Crit has diminishing returns. Going from 0% crit to 1% increases your dmg roughly by 1% (not counting impale etc). Going from 99% crit to 100% increases dmg by 0.5%. Also flurry uptime returns are much lower the more crit you have. Crit definitely outperforms haste at 0% crit, and it definitely loses at 100%. Somewhere in the middle is the equilibrum point, and while it depends on a lot of factors (rage generation, speed of weapons etc) and cant be calculated accurately in an easy way, its pretty safe to assume for T6+ warriors haste is ahead by a considerable margin.

The reason you even posted the "3% crit or 1% haste" example is a simple derivation from BT gear. Honestly haste itemization in BT is awful. Items have usually only haste and str or haste hit str on them. Thats bad, simply because only 2 or 3 dps stats is always bad for item budget. They didnt have sockets - again it reduces the value of gear in general. Finally they had huge stamina, again eating the stats. THATS why haste is seen as very expensive - in fact its not, being that it costs only around 70% of crit per percent.


Point about BT/WW is of course valid, however they only contribute to less then 30% of my damage. For slam/ms warriors its even better most of the time - IF you dont hit gcd cap on haste, it speeds up entire rotation working with 100% of your damaging moves.

Well problem is with raid buffs i have average of 5000 ap effectively. add 1400 for the weapon (converting the 100 dps weapon) and we talk about having 6400 effective AP. To increase the dmg of my swings by 1% i need to get 64 ap after UR/imp BS so roughly 54 ap on gear. To increase the dmg through haste i need to get 1/0.7 = 1.43% of haste or 23 rating roughly. 23 rating is easier to get then 54 ap.

As for passive crit on TT - like i said, im over 50% average crit in raids. Why would i really value some more that much? And dragonspine is hardly "random" to be honest - it procs within 5 sec of internal cooldown.



To reiterate . I Definitely wouldnt advise anyone to stack haste with CURRENT haste gear. BT haste gear is just awful. and only because of pre-nerf haste domination it was even used. However Sunwell gear is a different story. The haste stuff there has sockets, has often crit, ArP, and a lot of valuable stats on it. Dont ignore it just because of awful BT items

 

Machinator

I am curious what you use for your comparisons of what is better. You used SEP values earlier of haste = 3ap, hit = 1.4 ap, crit = 2.4 ap. 1 str would then also equal 2.2 ap with kings. I am having a hard time finding any gear that would give those values and is keeping white+heroic at 70%. If haste affects your HS, then that means your HS is limited by your MH speed rather than rage. To do this your OH alone would have to power your rage, is this what you do? This all seems contrary to most of what people and sheets say.

That said, I dont think DST is worth twice as much as the others, but it is better. Its not so much that haste is powerful with it, just there is so much of it for a pretty consistent amount of time.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Kaan

First of all, I only speak about DW-Fury, not MS-Fury etc. though I would wear DST with MS-Fury-Spec.

As said before, haste is undervalued by the most people because they think "uh, haste *bad items with worse stats and huge stamina come to mind* - haste sucks". No haste don't sucks and there are more and more items which are very fine with haste. DST, Pillager's Gauntlets, Cloak of Fiends, Tuskbreaker, Heartless when you need a slow offhand is very nice, Swiftsteel Bludgeon at least for Execute-Phase, and more.

When I exchange my DST with Berserkers Call, I have a loss in DPS of about 12 in Spreadsheet - this is huge. And bloodlust-phases won't change this, even considering your DST just don't procs in bloodlust-phases, it still is better. For me even Madness and TT are better than Berserkers Call. Madness has a high procrate, so it won't hurt your bloodlust-phases. I get the point, Berserkers Call is better to control, but thats all. The stats aren't a big shot.

edit: to loderunner:

Tuskbreaker VS. Ancient Amani Longbow, this is a excellent comparison to test how much haste "eats" from the itembudget:

Both weapons are ilvl 132, both have 38 AP. Ancient Amani with 126 ArP and Tuskbreaker with 18 Hasterating. My spreadsheet shows a difference of about 0,8 DPS between them. Saying this, CoR and FF are activated. Without these debuffs the difference is even lower. So I don't think hasterating eats too much itembudget per DPS. Its about the same as ArP, Critrating etc.

 

Shha

Well the SEP values come from the warrior dps spreadsheets on these forums. The amount of white + heroic seems to be pretty constant for me and just comes from my own recount/wws data. Basically on 7700 armor bosses where i have some rage problems its 44% white 26% heroic on last najentus, up to 42% heroic 29% white on teron and other 6200 bosses. Given how fair share of the white is actually WF attacks, the actual Heroic Strike percentage is higher.

Obviously those are rough numbers with fluctuations happening , but basically heroic seems to be in 25-45% range, and white+heroic always end up being close to 70%. Other damage is BT at around 13-14%, WW at 8 or so, deep wounds at 2-3 then executes. This is also another reason why i started to value ap a bit lower. Early on BT was a lot more % of my damage, so ap seemed better (BT dmg scales with 0.45 of your AP, while other hits scale with weapon damage + 0.24 of ap for 2h, and around 0,25-0,3 of ap with dual wield - depending on your hit). Now i mostly ignore BT "pecularities" when choosing gear, and focus on stuff that boosts my autoattack in first place. Same deal with t6 - at first i thought that dropping some stats for 4 piece bonus might be somehow viable (i was never a BIG fan of it you know, but it felt that while 4 piece is pretty bad it just might slightly outperform stat loss), but not anymore. I wont even try to get 4 piece with new Sunwell pieces.

 

Zunoth

What gear have u decided to get so far that we have seen from sunwell? :x

 

stoebz

Right now I am currently using Talon of Azshara in my MH and Merciless Gladators OH. I am pretty sure that I will grab the Syphon next time it drops for us. Should I then OH my Talon? or keep using the merc?

 

Machinator

What does the spreadsheet give as the % of your damage as white and heroic though? Is WF+OH giving you all your rage?

"Information is ammunition."

 

• LodeRunner

Well, yes, that's in line with how Armor Penetration is in general. The higher the base amount of armor on the mob you're hitting is, the less Armor Penetration does. That's why we have armor mitigating effects, debuffs, procs, and enchants that, when stacked, have a tremendous impact. I also tend to think of examples like, how the [Band of Devastation] turned, after the haste change, from the best dps ring hands down bar none to something on par with Malchezzar's [Ring of a Thousand Marks]. I just ditched my Band of Devastation for the ZA ring.

 

Shha

Well the ZA ring in general is 2nd best in slot after the stormrage ring for dual wield, and after unstoppable agressor for 2h if you dont need the hit.



As for my Sunwell gear? Well so far it seems everything is an upgrade so ill slowly work towards that. All 3 new pieces of t6 are good, and all current one will be replaced (which means shoulders/chest as other have better stuff anyway).

From there i had a dilemma - to use leather or not. I decided not to, for few reasons.

- the difference seems to be very very small, and while i understand the idea of "dps above all" , I dont feel like sacrificing thousands of armor for 0.1% dps increase.
- Plate is much easier to get
- Some of the plate seems to be "converted" from tank gear. I found often its better for me to invest more in tanking gear for early progression, than dps gear. With the conversions its even easier to grab some tanking plate 1st then switch.

So after that choice which indicates picking up BS, i decided to go with JC as well after using my enchanting on the boe JC ring.

After that with BS chest/gloves JC neck/ring pauldrons of berserking crown of anastarian muramas/mounting vengeance etc i came up with stats of 2360ap in zerker (2050) 183 hit (187) 31,37% crit (35,05%) 1043 ArP (1330) and 232 haste (0).

Overall as you can see i gain around 15% faster white attack. I lose 290 ArP but thats more then made up byb 310 ap boost. In fact the 290 ArP seems to increase my dmg by around 2-2.5% while amount of AP needed for that boost is close to 140 at most. That "leaves" 170 ap to deal with loss of approx 4% crit (i pulled hit loss in here), which is again a very good ratio Basically in terms of "typical" stats I lose a bit of dps but not much. However the 15% haste comes as pure "gain" from sunwell gear. That doesnt include sunwell trinkets and such.

 

Secx

My fury warrior has 3 weapons to choose from:

Spiteblade with mongoose
The Decapitator
Akil'zon's Talonblade

According to maxdps.com, both Spiteblade and Decapitator are better than Akil'zon. Is that really the case ? Which two should I use and which in MH/OH ?

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

It might show my spec as Arms, but that was for pvp. I logged off in my fury gear.

 

Amelliana

Could i ask, what is the general consensus on 2H Fury?

I put this forward to my guild not long ago and it was met with questioning looks, to me it appears to have several upsides.

Say with a build like... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(Crude i know, work with me!)

A "typical" 33/28 spec has (over 20/41)
- MS
- 2% 2H spec
- Weapon Spec
- Blood Frenzy

20/41 has (over 33/28)
- Bloodthirst
- 9sec Whirlwind
- extra 10% Attack Speed on Flurry
- -2% target dodge
- 3% hit
- 10% AP
- Rampage

To me, it looks like 20/41 should scale better, but the aspect i like the most is how easy a 3sec cycle can be with a fast enough weapon (zomg fast?!?!?!!!)

The idea being, that getting a weapon swing timer to 2.5sec means that you can essentially cycle slam -> instant without fear of clipping the swing timer.

On paper this seems inferior, in practice i feel it plays out better.

What i am looking for is flaws in the theory before i progress into the wide world of excel.

 

Quixotic

Well my previous statement was unclear on haste, I feel that anyone who uses haste other than DST now needs to look at how the items are itemized. Haste is still an excellent item value in that it works off all your crit/AP/ArP/hit but I'm honestly at a loss on how to model it (and I don't think spreadsheets are right in how highly they value it in regards to warglaives, but that's a personal problem).

[Dreadboots of the Legion] vs. [Onslaught Treads] both socketed with 5crit/5str.
+14 stamina
+7 hit rating
+30 haste rating
-40 crit rating

[Hard Khorium Battleplate] vs [Warharness of Reckless Fury] both socketed with 5crit/5str.
+12 stamina
+4 str
+32 haste rating
-4 crit rating
-280 armor penetration

I suppose it comes down to how much haste is on the 'ideal' fury warrior DPS set, and see how much total haste you have has on the new SEP value for haste, and we'll just have to wait on more items to come out to see. I will say that other than the leatherworking BoE gloves there could potentially be only plate in the 'ideal' set, versus having Illidan helm/Archimonde chest as it stands now.