I put this forward to my guild not long ago and it was met with questioning looks, to me it appears to have several upsides.
20/41 is slightly better for personal DPS, but is a substantial loss of raid DPS because you don't have blood frenzy. Also use >this< build instead. If you're not bringing blood frenzy to the table, you may as well take over improved tclap/demo shout duty.
(and I don't think spreadsheets are right in how highly they value it in regards to warglaives, but that's a personal problem).
I think this is one of the problems with haste, everyone thinks of it one way, then there is what sheets say, and then there is what it really does. Im trying to work it into my model for fixing how sheets assume you have the average rage all the time.
I've hit 1850 in arena, and I'm looking at the 1H S3 weapons. There is a 2.8 speed off-hand available. Is 2.8/2.8 ideal for DW-Fury in PvE, or should I stick with 2.8/1.5? I thought it might be because of the change to Whirlwind, but I'm worried that it will kill my rage generation to a degree.
Raid buffed I'd be at something like:
~3000 AP
35% crit
180 hit rating (plus 3% precision, plus 1% racial)
What would you guys suggest? I've been browsing armory, but I'm having a hard time finding someone that's logged out in their PvE gear.
Last edited by Azurella : 02/12/08 at 11:16 PM.
Reason: spelling
2.6 is probably closer to optimal for whichever weapon you chose for your slow weapon simply because AP is normalized at 2.4 anyway and the "DPS" from all of the 1h are identical. As for slow/slow vs slow/fast it just depends on how much hit you already have. It's easier on rage to miss with a fast off hand than it is a slow. Even if the overall rage gained is "the same" on paper, it doesn't work out like that with double slow when you have miss streaks and then crit streaks. Sometimes you'll be rage starved for a second or two, other times you might shoot past 100 rage very quickly.
Well my previous statement was unclear on haste, I feel that anyone who uses haste other than DST now needs to look at how the items are itemized. Haste is still an excellent item value in that it works off all your crit/AP/ArP/hit but I'm honestly at a loss on how to model it (and I don't think spreadsheets are right in how highly they value it in regards to warglaives, but that's a personal problem).
I suppose it comes down to how much haste is on the 'ideal' fury warrior DPS set, and see how much total haste you have has on the new SEP value for haste, and we'll just have to wait on more items to come out to see. I will say that other than the leatherworking BoE gloves there could potentially be only plate in the 'ideal' set, versus having Illidan helm/Archimonde chest as it stands now.
The 2 items you listed are probably worst for haste though. The treads I initially discarded as a downgrade. Then I decided to give them a shot because of set bonuses. Then i dropped set bonuses anyway, but spreadsheets still were showing the treads as slight upgrade. I guess thats mostly personal. The Khorium battleplate is clearly better imo (although at cost of BS requirement). 280 ap equals almost exactly 40 haste for my setup, and crit is a bit better then str. So overall 280 ap>32 haste and 4 crit>4 str. No contest here.
If you want to look at good haste slots lets take a look :
The best way to come to a the conclusion is to take it to the extreme. Say you have a 0.5 speed weapon and slam was not on the global cooldown. You can swing constantly for X damage every .5 seconds, or every other swing you can cast slam instead for X+140, cutting out 50% of your white damage. Obviously weaving slam does more damage than not weaving slam.
Sub 2.5s, you could alter your rotation to be e.g. swing/slam, MS, swing, swing/slam, WW, swing, swing/slam. This would require more of a "by-the-feel" reaction than to try to program it because you wouldn't want to keep MS or WW off of cooldown for very long, but would be more DPS than cutting out slam entirely. Weaving slams would no longer be your priority however; keeping MS and WW on cooldown would be, and you'd weave a slam in whenever feasible.
This is what I do when my haste-happy compatriots in the melee group blow Heroism/Drums of Battle and I have a DST proc. It's still higher DPS than the perfect 2.5 speed swing time so long as you prioritize MS/WW, using slams on GCDs in between your instants. For that matter, doing a fury-style 3xMS/2xWW rotation should work fairly well, and the career DPS warriors are likely already familiar with that spec as well. It's not at all unrelated to hunter shot rotations, especially the 1:1 special:auto rotation that BM hunters use as their bread and butter.
The 2 items you listed are probably worst for haste though. The treads I initially discarded as a downgrade. Then I decided to give them a shot because of set bonuses. Then i dropped set bonuses anyway, but spreadsheets still were showing the treads as slight upgrade. I guess thats mostly personal. The Khorium battleplate is clearly better imo (although at cost of BS requirement). 280 ap equals almost exactly 40 haste for my setup, and crit is a bit better then str. So overall 280 ap>32 haste and 4 crit>4 str. No contest here.
If you want to look at good haste slots lets take a look :
Onslaught Belt vs Boneweave Girdle (socket lionseye in t6)
45 str 50 crit 26 haste vs 76 ap 39 agi 24 crit 17 hit
with kings ~24 ap 26 haste vs 5 crit 17 hit.
I didn't list those shoulders or belt purely because they are a clear upgrade.
The other ones are the "iffy" haste upgrades that I'm personally unsure about. I'm leaning toward keeping Dreadboots and using the BS crafted chest myself.
I've been having a problem in my guild. We run with 2 dps warriors one is MS and the other DW. Our melee group consist of enchance shammy/Ret Pally/Warrior/Rogue/Rogue.
We try and keep the melee group looking like that. Now the problem we run into is which warrior will benefit more in the melee group and more importantly bring the total raid DPS up.
The extra warrior goes into the hunter group with a feral druid and a resto shaman who drops GoA.
It's also worth mentioning the they both have commanding presence ,but the MS warrior has Solarian's Sapphire and the other doesnt.
Also if anyone has any sort of math on this I'd be happy to see it =D
Generally the MS warrior gets more from it, however, its very much player based, i.e. if the fury warrior is a much better player then the arms warrior, he'll end up getting more out of the good group. I'd say whichever tends to be the worst player between the two warriors and the retadin gets booted to the other group. For more specific information theres a thread about ideal melee class make up, and you can probably find your information there.
The arms warrior will be crippled without windfury, so it would be pretty detrimental to his dps to put him in the GoA group. The fury warrior's dps will be hurt as well, but not to quite the same extent. On top of that, Solarian's Sapphire is a huge benefit to a melee group. This is all assuming equal skill and gear of course.
You should be putting one of the rogues into the feral/GoA group. They will lose far less dps compared to the warriors if they use poisons, along with gaining more from GoA. Otherwise, the warrior with Solarion's should be in the melee group, it is a massive dps increase.
edit: Though I guess battle shout on the pets and feral druid will add a decent amount. So likely the highest dps option is going to be fury in the hunter group, and ms + Solarion's in the wf group.
A guildie wrote this in response to the arms vs fury matter:
I dont think MS is worth it. show me some calc that its worth it and i reconsider.
4% extra dmg to ´
1 rogue - 2k dps = 80dps
1 fury warr - 1800 dps = 72dps
u self ofc 1300 dps = 52dps
1 sham 1300dps = 52 dps
2 druids 2500 dps = 100dps
1 hunter 1500dps = 60
1 MT = 300dps
478 dps.
is that worth the 500+dps u miss?!
Besides a very small MS advantage on only a handful of bosses, and a very weak imp. Demo, I guess he have a point?
You should take notice that this is purely endgame, access to all loot, incl taking the lead in Sunwell when that comes.
My point is, we've seen examples of old MS warriors, who really like the playstyle (as do I) but every single time, if you would have put a DW fury warrior in his place, the raid-dps would have improved...? The only setups where this isn't true, would be in overly melee heavy raids (8-9 melee dps or more).
Anyone got any form of math or WWS parses with a MS warrior AND a DW warrior, where you can actually see the need for the MS or doesn't get confused, when looking on the "Damage Done", if he is a tank or not? ;'(
A fury warrior should never be doing over 500 more dps than the MS warrior. When the rogues in my guild are doing near 2k, I am usually doing 16-1900, depending on latency/unlucky rage starvation. For the most part I can come pretty close to keeping up with them, though none of them have warglaives yet.
Blood frenzy is very much worth it, even when your raid isn't melee heavy. Most raids should have around 2 rogues, ideally an enh shaman, a feral druid and 1-2 hunters, that is more than enough to make BF way outdo any dps lost by being MS spec.
I think we really need to get some decent, accurate Theory about how good haste is. It's certainly not bad, if itemized well (ie. DST), but in order to properly rank the new gear we need to get a better idea of where it stands in relation to the other stats. I find Shha's SEP values rather hard to swallow, after doing some simple estimate maths in my head, but I do wonder if I'm underestimating it.
Going with my current feelings about haste, I did some quick browsing of Wowhead at lunch and I'm seeing the following leather items in Sunwell being best-in-slot: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk], [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (a slight upgrade from the BS chest, a large upgrade for a non-BSer like myself), and maybe [Leggings of the Immortal Night].
Going with my current feelings about haste, I did some quick browsing of Wowhead at lunch and I'm seeing the following leather items in Sunwell being best-in-slot: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk], [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (a slight upgrade from the BS chest, a large upgrade for a non-BSer like myself), and maybe [Leggings of the Immortal Night].
Well the problem with "best in slot" leather gear at this point in the game is that you probably won't be killing Kil'Jaeden more than 5-10 times before you call it quits before WotLK. I don't know of many guilds that will continue farming sunwell when the next expansion will just reset gear, because what's the point of farming instances? To gear up for the next, harder instance, and with a gear reset there will be none.
It will be hard to get leather gear unless you are actually willing to take it over your guild's rogues/druids when it's only marginal upgrades at best. The only practical leather piece is the gloves, as they are a crafted BoE item.
Well the problem with "best in slot" leather gear at this point in the game is that you probably won't be killing Kil'Jaeden more than 5-10 times before you call it quits before WotLK. I don't know of many guilds that will continue farming sunwell when the next expansion will just reset gear, because what's the point of farming instances? To gear up for the next, harder instance, and with a gear reset there will be none.
It will be hard to get leather gear unless you are actually willing to take it over your guild's rogues/druids when it's only marginal upgrades at best. The only practical leather piece is the gloves, as they are a crafted BoE item.
That's very true. I probably wont get much/any of the current T6-level best-in-slot leather either - My guild killed Shahraz last night, and I doubt we'll have many weeks farming Illidan before Sunwell comes out and we get superior plate items to the current leather drops. Then as you said, if/when we kill Kil'jaeden, we may not kill him that many times so some of this loot will be out of reach. Still, I find it interesting to work out what the best 'possible' gear setup is.
Haste is still hugely overrated imo. Sure, you get faster attack speed, but at high levels of gear you don't need the rage, and it just becomes another HS every 100 swings, versus every one of your 100 swings doing more damage/critting more often. I already have enough rage to basically spam my HS button the entire fight and never have to watch my rage to keep enough for bloodthirst/ww. Of course there will be periods of dodge/miss streaks but the point is at high levels of gear the passive crit on TT, and the ability to stack Berzerker's Call with bloodlust/haste potion/drums/recklessness makes it far superior to a haste proc.
I think this is a really important point which has been largely ignored. While total DPS is important, we also need to consider total threat. Assuming you had enough rage to use BT and WW every time they're up (and keep your shout and rampage up) additional hits from haste will increase your white damage AND your HS damage (since you’ll have extra rage to dump), thereby increasing threat. It seems to me that as HS counts for a higher and higher percent of your total damage, while your theoretical DPS increases, you will become limited by threat.
Also, on a similar note, fast or slow MH? A slow MH will clearly increase your WW damage, but a fast MH will increase your HS damage since HS costs less rage when used with a faster weapon-->HS with a slow 2 hander costs 15 (or 12) PLUS the rage you WOULD have gotten for the foregone white hit (maybe 30 for a 2 hander...a total of 45 rage for 208 damage). If you're swinging a 1.5 second rogue off-hand-type weapon, your HS will only cost 15+maybe 10 rage for the same 208 bonus damage.
Anyway, I think both of these issues (haste and slow vs. fast MH) are both somewhat related as they both pertain to the concept of being threat capped (something that doesn't show on a spreadsheet) as the percentage of your total damage done by HS steadily increases.
2.6 is probably closer to optimal for whichever weapon you chose for your slow weapon simply because AP is normalized at 2.4 anyway and the "DPS" from all of the 1h are identical.
After our raid last night I was left with a question about "normalizing" like you mentioned here. We cleared Hyjal and some of BT, and had Tracker's Blade - Items - World of Warcraft drop, which I picked up since no one else needed. In BT we had a Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft drop, which I could have taken, but I had just gotten the dagger so didn't feel like grabbing another weapon just for the hell of it.
I have heard that daggers and maces are normalized differently. I assume Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft is a good explanation of what exactly normalizing is. As a fury warrior the only one that I'd have to worry about is WW. Is the wowwiki site updated for WW hitting with the offhand as well? In this case, if both weapons had equal stats, I would assume that the mace as an offhand would do more WW damage by 2.4/1.7, or around 40%. Or perhaps the wowwiki only refers to the mainhand, before implementation of the WW change? Should I have taken the mace as an upgrade over the dagger I just got? As far as my gear goes, I need crit badly, and would trade haste for crit in a heartbeat, so decided to stick with the dagger.
EDIT: From the WW wiki page I found this quote: Since Patch 2.3, Whirlwind will hit with both weapons if you are dual-wielding. The damage from both attacks is normalized. This also means that a dagger in your off-hand will usually be doing less damage than a sword, mace, axe or fist weapon. I think that answers my question...
Well pending my question regarding Heroic Strike, maybe your choice wasn't a bad one. Sure, you'll do less WW damage, but with that quick dagger in your main hand, the rage cost of Heroic Strike is dramatically decreased. The question is will your increase in Heroic Strike damage make up for your lower WW hits? Will you become threat capped?
Also, regarding normalization, despite the fact that weapon speed was changed for a constant, speed still does matter since a slower weapon has higher top-end damage...doesn't it? Meaning, isn't a slow mace in your off hand still better than a fast one (assuming equal DPS and other stats)?
A fury warrior should never be doing over 500 more dps than the MS warrior. When the rogues in my guild are doing near 2k, I am usually doing 16-1900, depending on latency/unlucky rage starvation. For the most part I can come pretty close to keeping up with them, though none of them have warglaives yet.
Blood frenzy is very much worth it, even when your raid isn't melee heavy. Most raids should have around 2 rogues, ideally an enh shaman, a feral druid and 1-2 hunters, that is more than enough to make BF way outdo any dps lost by being MS spec.
I'm in mid T5 (3/6 and 1/4 atm). So if this is about MS warrior performance at the very highest of high ends, ignore this post.
My raid leader doesn't have a premium WWS account so unfortunately all my 17/44 WWSs aren't there anymore. But I can say anecdotally my dps has dropped ~120 or so on average. But the benefit to the raid surely outweighs the loss of ~120 personal dps; we have 2 rogues, 3 hunters, one regular enhancement shaman, and myself, not to mention the boost to threat for the tanks.
I know these are not the absolutely stunningly huge numbers I've see from dps warriors in T6 content. I attribute that to their raids using heavier buff stacking than mine does, the fights being shorter (I've read in several threads on these boards that melee in general start seeing much higher dps numbers in T6 because the fights are shorter, and so heroism and other cooldowns are up for a higher % of the fight), and to those warriors probably being better than me skillwise. I switched to this spec about three weeks ago and still think I have room to improve.
But data from a mid-T5 raid is still worth something, right? I'd say from my personal experience with both Fury and Arms that if your dps warrior can hack it as 2-hand Slam, that 2-hand Slam is superior for raid dps. I think most of the people that say "Arms warriors aren't worth it even with Blood Frenzy" have never run with one that really knows what they're doing.
02/12/08, 9:57 PM
