I'm sorry if I can't plan my raids around this board to make sure you always have a WWS up for your entertainment, but go ahead and look at the WWS I posted.
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss.
You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
I don't think anyone was making the wildly fantastic claims you're attributing to them.
All anyone really said was, in a best case scenario, it could be viable build for a dps warrior. Noone did any math making claims past this point, and I don't really think many people would want too.
I'm glad you posted on some other forum, there are many wws parses available in a number of locations for your digest either way. I don't know what you are looking for, I think that we're not going to get a definitive answer, there just isn't one. Is fury viable raid dps? Usually. Is arms viable raid dps? Sometimes. Group buffs that both 'need' to excel are very similair, a dps warrior without WF is never as good as one with.
I have the feeling it's overrating hit and underrating crit but I have yet to read the explanation so I won't pass judgement yet.
that is the damage equivalence points that i use, it hasnt been updated since the patch 2.0 so who knows how accurate it is now. I use the mod pawn with those values to make most of my gear choices. It would be nice if some on could update it who has real BC raiding experience
Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere in this thread, but what's currently better for PvE with a 31/30 build- Sword Spec or Axe spec? The spreadsheet only really models DW, and I'm not really sure if 2.1 Sword spec's current incarnation is modeled either.
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it?
If you are crit capped (though you shouldn't be), go with sword; otherwise axe. Since sword proc is now white damage, so it can glance, and crit damage from axe will not. Of course, assuming you have similar quality weapons.
I'd go axe regardless simply because it doesn't make the same gawd awful clacking noise swords do.
I don't think anyone was making the wildly fantastic claims you're attributing to them.
All anyone really said was, in a best case scenario, it could be viable build for a dps warrior. Noone did any math making claims past this point, and I don't really think many people would want too.
I'm glad you posted on some other forum, there are many wws parses available in a number of locations for your digest either way. I don't know what you are looking for, I think that we're not going to get a definitive answer, there just isn't one. Is fury viable raid dps? Usually. Is arms viable raid dps? Sometimes. Group buffs that both 'need' to excel are very similair, a dps warrior without WF is never as good as one with.
I guess there's not really much to add to this other than you choose how you spec and hopefully deliver. I'm still not completely convinced about 2hander viability because of lack of evidence or personal experience, but if guild's don't mind, I guess there's never really a problem. Maybe i'll spec 2h fury eventually and try it out, but it's a fairly big change for somebody whose been dwing since the release of BWL/AQ.
In regards to the combat ratings system, the one created by Theesa is a lot different from the one on the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet. I'll put up the ratings in a bit, but the key differences in the two are the effects of raid buffs due to BoK, and the "opinion" of which is a stronger stat, hit rating or crit rating.
From just opening up the DPS War SS, you get the point layout:
Agil - .7
Str - 1
AP - .41
Hit - .59
Crit - .94
Now I'm not quite sure how to choose which is in fact, the stronger rating system. The one on the spreadsheet seems to make a bit more sense to me as it doesn't quite value hit as much as crit. However, it seems to value agil quite a bit as well which I don't necessarily agree with, but I can understand why it'd be like that because of BoK.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/19/07 at 4:45 PM.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss.
You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
Of course specs are situational, picking on single situations doesn't make one superior to another though. E.g. i was watery graved 7 times on our last morogrim kill and ended up with lousy 500 dps, while a BF spec still would have kept my passive dps for the melee up.
Yes elementals in ph2 of lady vashj don't take the bleeding debuff, but doesn't help the higher burst damage of a MS warrior to kill them faster?
Another example: if you have to OT as dps warrior a BF specced warriors still can provide a very valuable debuff for the raid (in addition to 5% more threat compared to a fury warrior).
I think this list could be extended endlessly in both directions, but the points is: we are theorycrafting here and in theory if your raid is hacking on a target dummy BF + arms spec dps equals approximately full fury warrior dps.
If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
Because (1) "DW IZ 4 PVE DPS!!!" is pretty much the most quoted line on the WoW warrior forums, (2) people always tend to underestimate raid-wide buffs/debuffs, and (3) a lot of people prefer to be the one making the most use of the buffs rather than giving them.
Because (1) "DW IZ 4 PVE DPS!!!" is pretty much the most quoted line on the WoW warrior forums, (2) people always tend to underestimate raid-wide buffs/debuffs, and (3) a lot of people prefer to be the one making the most use of the buffs rather than giving them.
I'm not really sure the warrior board is the go-to source for the majority of guilds who have good pve progression. In fact, it'd be hard to actually find a warrior who has cleared SSC or even stepped foot in SSC, on the warrior board.
In terms of raid wide buffing, I see a fair share of survival hunters and expose weakness is one of the strongest raid wide buffs in the game.
In terms of who likes to give and get buffs, I guess it's all relative to your experience. There are a ton of enhancement shamans on my server and aren't they pretty much the epitome of melee buffing? Maybe it could be the desire to dps as well, but nobody knows for sure.
Now in terms of the use of blood frenzy, how often does an MS warrior have the need to tank? And what mobs do an ms warrior tank that melee dps actually hit? Maybe Al'ar, and depending on your guild's tank choices Kael/Fathom, but one only tanks the add for a limited amount of time and I'd be surprised if the amount of dps gained from blood frenzy reached the tens of thousands.
Again, this is rather a pointless discussion, because one will always search for an exception. It is of my OPINION, that target switching, bleed immunity, and lack of a shaman will be the downfall of MS warrior viability. If you bring an MS war to your raid, more power to you. It won't make a significant difference.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
In fact, it'd be hard to actually find a warrior who has cleared SSC or even stepped foot in SSC, on the warrior board.
I am pretty sure I've seen you around the board, as well as replied to a thing or two you've said. I'm also fairly certain both of our guilds are in SSC. I am also pretty sure that not everyone is equally good at their class as another, so when talking about theorycraft and specs; what is or it not feasible depends entirely on the gear and skill of the players in question.
It is of my OPINION, that target switching, bleed immunity, and lack of a shaman will be the downfall of MS warrior viability. If you bring an MS war to your raid, more power to you. It won't make a significant difference.
You have voiced your opinion, which is a bit baseless considering you admit you've not ever tried it. If anything, there are people who disagree with your view so you needn't be so strident in voicing your opinion. So, as there are people trying Arms builds in raids, you could either offer some advice and constructive criticism or stay silent rather than pish-poshing it. My 2¢.
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Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items).
Couple of things to note:
- I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there.
- healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't).
- Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest.
- I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps.
- My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood
Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there.
I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable .
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items).
Couple of things to note:
- I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there.
- healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't).
- Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest.
- I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps.
- My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood
Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there.
I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable .
Yup, Karathress is great for 2h because everything is pretty much stationary, I only have one piece of tier-4 (although I do have a Lionheart Executioner) and I murdered the damage meters quite badly (top place, ~610k damage done with 2 minutes left on the enrage timer). Windfury and Sword Spec = endless rage to slam spam with on stationary bosses and I'm 90% sure I would have done better post 19% damage with slam spam instead of execute . Also never used any consumables or recklessness (wasted reck on a wipe before where we died to the enrage because too many DPS died dumb deaths).
I have to say I'm really tempted to spec 2h fury though, but then I have no MS and I'll be useless at farming the new arena season gear.
Your average Slam would have to come out to ~1387 to match Imp Execute DPR, and that is if your Slam landed less than .5 seconds after your auto attack. Doesn't seem too hard to do if you are perfect at timing your Slams with any of the crafted weapons and 2950 or so AP. (Imp) Slam easily beats vanilla Execute. Slam is very powerful, and scales extremely well. The problem though is that you really want stationary targets. If your target moves at all, it can really hurt your DPS badly.
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items).
Couple of things to note:
- I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there.
- healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't).
- Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest.
- I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps.
- My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood
Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there.
I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable .
I don't know what your kill order is, but I recommend tanking the Shaman and Hunter adds closer together for Blade Flurry/Whirlwind/Multishot/etc.
(If you already do, shame on Elude for not taking advantage.)
You can always fall back to MS/WW spam. That's good DPS for moving targets as it comes in bursts.
It's ok fall back damage, but WW is even less viable except on boss fights...and in most cases, the boss won't be moving around too much. MS is part of the standard (at least mine) Slam rotation anyway, so you wouldn't really be substituting it for anything. If Slam is problematic you would have to resort to MS/hamstring in most cases. That is assuming you have either Flurry, Windfury or both.
Hey guys, ive been messing around with a spec that tries and abuses a warriors sword spec while dual weilding and i think ive come up with a decent one here.
Im just wondering what you guys think of it, and basically just curious if its worth it or if i should just go deeper fury for rampage/imp zerker stance.
Also if this spec is a good one, what would i need to build besides hit? im thinking crit more than AP just so flurry stays on and to get more damage from sword spec, but AP may be better more more damage per swing.
Currently im using Latros and edge of the cosmos, but im wondering if faster swords would be better for this build. im trying to buy a blinkstrike to MH but the only one i know of is quite out of my price range and i dont wanna buy something i wont use.
for a 31/30 2h arms build, i think the 12agi, 3% increased crit damage meta gem followed by a lot of crit gems would be the way to go. makes it so that you don't have a yellow gem limit that 12crit meta requires so you actually gain more crit with that meta. the meta's second stat greatly benefits this route as well. and talent-wise, you gain a lot from crit, more dps than str imo (not tested yet though). flurry, deep wounds, impale, sweeping strike, and sword spec and wf (extra attacks criting is what i mean with these) all benefit from crit.
speaking of extra attacks, stacking crit theoretically raises your dps exponentially. say for example you have 20% crit with sword spec. sword spec's 5% chance to proc an extra attack has a 20% chance to crit when it procs, so sword spec actually gains you a whole 1% crit (5% * 20% = 1%) behind the scenes, thus increasing your total dps by approximately 1%. at 40% crit, you gain 2% crit. these are just examples and can get extremely beneficial when throwing WF and more crit in there.
fully raid geared and buffed, i think ~45% crit is obtainable by a 2h sword spec'd warrior. so sword spec and wf give you a 35% chance to gain an extra attack. 35%*45%=15.75% extra crit. also, since sword spec can proc off of WF attack and vise versa, depending on which one proc'd before, you keep chain multiplying the %'s. my math kinda stops after the first extra attack, but i'm sure you guys get the idea.
anyone wanna second-check my theorycrafting and math just to make sure? lol i don't want to pick the crit-central route and realize i've made a mistake. thx.
I don't know what your kill order is, but I recommend tanking the Shaman and Hunter adds closer together for Blade Flurry/Whirlwind/Multishot/etc.
(If you already do, shame on Elude for not taking advantage.)
We've tried that, but the raid gets ripped up by multi-shots. We usually run with 6 or 7 healers, so we don't really have extra healing to spare on that fight until after the Shaman is dead.
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy.
this is quite similar to my current spec apart from a few slight changes i use http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAMozAioM0zZVVzmMgoV myself atm, which means you get the bonus from weapon spec + very cheap heroic strike(always nice for tanking, and a rage dump if you're far behind on damage, iron will is nice for pvp, but fairly useless in pve), i didn't pick imp overpower, as i don't have TM, which basically means i loose all my rage except for the stuff i use for overpower, which isn't worth it imo. Also don't underestimate imp charge, always nice to start of with a nice amount of rage. in the fury tree i didn't go for full commanding presence but 4/5 so i can pick up Piercing Howl, which is probably one of my favorite talents, amazing for cc.
also in reply to the stat focus thing, this i my current gear setup for pve: http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...+Dawn&n=Laknor which means, without the flask approx 38,5% crit(zerker stance), and 1700 AP. Raidbuffed this translates into 45ish crit, with feral druid buff, and 2kish AP. Seeing as my crit is sort of ok right now i'm trying to get my AP over 1800 AP, at which point i think i'm fairly well balanced.
i do have a question though for those MS warriors using Blood Frenzy in their build. Do you think it's worth keeping the 3/5 flurry or spend those points in imp MS?
Hi, new member here nice site been reading it for a while but wanted to make a post as the people here seem to know alot more than the general public on the wow site.
My question is this for a human fury warrior i want to purchase either a mace or sword to take advantage of the +5 weapon skill.
Next week I will have enough arena points to get my main hand weapon followed by my oh in a couple of weeks.
So the stats for the mace and sword are pretty similar been the top end damage is higher on the mace over the sword but the low end is adjusted so ineffect the mace has different low end damage.
So what I would like to know is there any dps advantage in pure pve situations only take one over the other?
(sword)
Merciless Gladiator's Slicer
Binds when picked up
One-HandSword
203-305 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Vs (Mace)
Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler
Binds when picked up
One-HandMace
177-330 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.5 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
While we are on the subject of Arena weapons (I cannot get the spreadsheet to work with OppenOffice and no one has actually told me how to enable or disable feedback), how exactly is off hand damage calculated? Is it weapon + AP x 50% (62%) or Weapon + (AP x 50%/62%)? I want to get a better off hand than my current...if there really is a true upgrade through Arena weapons. I'm currently using:
Malchazeen
One-Hand Dagger
132 - 199 Damage Speed 1.80
(91.9 damage per second)
+16 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 15.
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.
The only option I would consider replacing it with would be:
Merciless Gladiator's Hacker
Off Hand Axe
102 - 191 Damage Speed 1.50
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
But I would most likely go with the 1.8 speed version. Is +5.8 physical DPS (then toss in the off hand penalty) actually going to see any real increase in damage? I'd also be gaining 0.86% crit while losing 22 AP and 0.33% hit. Then toss in the orc racial of +5 axe skill, which at this point, I have absolutely no idea what it does. Is it +0.04% hit/crit -dodge, -parry per point or +0.2% per point? Char sheet shows it adding 0.04% crit at least. Does it increase hit/crit even more vs lvl 73 mobs? It doesn't seem like anyone has it completely figured out yet.
I'm not against grinding Arena to get one of these at all, but I'd like to think I would be gaining a real upgrade other than just more hit points. Plus, I have this wierd aversion to ever lowering AP when possible. I also do not want to drop lower than 15% hit, but again, I do not know exactly how much +5 skill will contribute to that, and it doesn't seem to reflect in the hit rating value.
Can't comment on the weapon skill thing, as i play undead, and from the current itemization and effect of +weapon skill...i just ignore it.
I was faced with a similar situation as you Graul. I decided to go with the Gladiator axe for a few reasons.
1. It IS higher dps, significantly more so then my old fel-edged battleaxe i had previously.
2. It's an axe....using daggers just feels wrong. Plus, i don't have to piss off any rogues over melch, when i could be pissing them off over the ring of lethality or trinket offa leo.
3. It looks hella cool, and the....vibrant green glow from +20 str doesn't show on it. Saving my sanity greatly. Walking around like a big green light bulb really bothered me.
Now, for you, would it be a big, or even noticeable upgrade? I'd wager it wouldn't make more then a half of a percent difference one way or another.
My current plan to is to have the main-hand and off-hand gladiator weapons, and switch from weaponsmith to armor, and get the T3 crafted breastplate. That's a much better setup for me then using the crafted T3 weapon and doomplate chest IMO. This has the added bonus of giving me something like 75-80 more stamina, so i can cheap out on stamina on all my other gear and stack straight AP/crit/hit.
On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say. I've been looking to get the drape of the dark reavers off of Aran, but he hasn't dropped it in over 3 months. The other thought i had was a vengeance wrap with a +8 str gem. It's something like 32 more ap and 10 more CR, but i give up 15 sta (which i dont mind) and 10 hit rating (which i do kinda mind)
06/19/07, 4:11 PM
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