What I'm suggesting is that 2x15rage executes are better damage than 1x30 rage execute, or to take it an extreme, 6x15rage executes are far better than 1x90 rage execute. If you compare the ratio 15rage : Execute base damage, you'll find that you get a lot more bang for your buck than the extra rage over the 15. 'Saving' rage for executes is not worth it, you should do your full cycle until 19%, and then start hammering Execute as soon as it lights up each GCD. If you manage to spike to over 30rage, you should probably use bloodthirst rather than execute that GCD, as with decent levels of gear bloodthirst is better than a 30+ rage execute.

Oh, I wasnt meaning to imply that I thought I was anywhere near being crit capped.. just that with my current DPS gear, I was not hit capped unless I had a food buff up, but being hit capped again didnt change anything. The only WWS report I have is from finishing up Hyjal. I had a feral for this raid so my character sheet crit rate would have been just under 37%.

Azonos - WWS

Azgalor and Archimonde kills are in that report too, and my crit rate was painfully low on all attacks here, although I did roll well on ww's for this report, only outta 5 though! 22% on MS, 27% on slam, 31% on white attacks, all well below the 37% that I should have. And yes, I am always attacking from behind. :P

The BT:Exec ratios I'm familiar with. The clarification on 2x15 vs. 1x30 was a perfect example for your argument. Interesting viewpoint.

I'm curious- how do fury warriors justify their 25man raid slots these days? The only fury warriors I've ran into are diehard guildies of guilds that have been around since pre-bc. Thier slot isn't won with talent or mathmatical backing- but off of loyalty and consistency.
It takes no skill to PvP as MS- a solid 2H and you are a force to be reckoned with. Now, raiding has taken the same turn with BF alone being too great an asset with as little as 5-6 physical dps present.
I've always viewed the fury warrior as a group buffing, rogue-like DPSer but with a 20% burn niche. Where's the benefit in 2 in a raid (Spriests are 'niche' but highly useful in quantity. Feral druids arguably 'niche' but also highly useful in quantity. 2 Enh shams are possible with 1 melee group and 1 tanking group (threat)...) much less bringing a single one when you have BF you're missing out on?
Short of this being 'QQ': What is the [Warrior] Future of the *Fury* DPS Warrior?

Im not sure what you mean by that exactly, are you saying you would bring a bad MS over a good fury for the debuff? If so, would'nt that mean that blizzard messed up and either MS needs to be nerfed or Fury buffed?

Clarification: arms warrior or fury warrior of equal 'talent' or 'skill'.

Edit: In some cases, actually, yes. Just having BF active outweighs the difference in personal DPS by signification margins. Assuming arms does 80% of fury's DPS (80% is very conservative), and assuming a baseline 1k DPS by all other DPSers:
1: 1k ~> 1040
2: 1k ~> 1040
3: 1k ~> 1040
4: 1k ~> 1040
5: 1k ~> 1040
6(you) 800
TOTAL: 6k
Obviously 1k from each, plus 1k from yourself if you were fury yields the same results. Keep in mind you'll have 2 tanks (minimum) benefitting from BF, and usually some hunters + their pets to factor in as well... ya, if the BF debuffer knew how to stay alive, his personal DPS is rather insignificant. Just slap up the debuff and thanks for your service to your country. Assuming you do 80% of a similarly played/geared fury, just having 5 or so other physical dps present makes you far more attractive.

Looks like the expertise racials don't stack anymore on PTR.

The same way rogues do - DPS. In my experience, a well-played, well-geared fury warrior is competitive with a similarly-geared, similarly-played rogue, and we also bring battle shout, imp demo shout and (when we have a non-warrior tank) sunder.

However, as you have pointed out, an Arms warrior brings all this and more, and well played arms warriors (From what I've read) do not lag behind fury much in personal dps. In this sense, if you're optimizing for raid dps, bring one arms warrior would be better than bringing one fury warrior.

In my guild, we have only one arms warrior, who mostly PvPs and doesn't raid regularly. It's not an option to take him to every raid, and so I get taken most of the time because a fury warrior is better than another rogue. Not taking at least 1 dps warrior of any kind is just awful - your melee group WANTS battle shout. A lot of people underestimate Battle shout, but talented with sapphire it's over 500 attack power. To get that much from Unleashed rage (which is also isnt quite up 100% of the time) you'd need 5000 attack power, which as has been discussed is basically out of reach barring trinkets+WF.

Now, I guess from a min-maxing point of view, it would make sense for me to spec arms instead, but when it comes down to it, I absolutely detest the playstyle of arms, and I find it completely boring in raids. Yes, that is a completely selfish reason, but when it comes down to it, I raid for fun, and for me, that is fury (or prot - I also really enjoy tanking and I regularly respec prot when we're low on tanks), but not arms. I don't feel bad about it because I'm generally in the top 5 on DPS, mostly top 3 except fights which really don't favour melee. On fights which do favour melee, I often reach first, particularly if they're warrior friendly (Akama, Solarian, etc.)

So, it comes down to this. A fury warrior is still an excellent use of a raid spot. An arms warrior is (perhaps) a slightly more excellent use of a raid spot. Use them appropriately.

Any of you plan to replace your [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] with [Shifting Tanzanite] next patch? They're no longer unique. =D

Does this mean, I can wear Sword + Axe now and get 5 Expertise for both as a human, or do I need 2 Swords/Maces, to get the 5 Expertise for both hands?

Oh yeah, that was the plan but I have done 4 or so SV runs without seeing it drop even once <_<
Going to be a nice DPS freebie in any case.

Heroic steam vaults hates me.

10 runs, no gem.

But it's definatly gonna be a nice no compromise way to gem gear, pure offensive stats while still getting the socket bonus :>

Maybe it's intended to be a pure DPS gem? Some heroic gems are quite... "unique", such as [Assassin's Fire Opal] so having a single blue DPS gem isn't too far fetched, especially considering that this gem is worse than a proper red gem for DPS anyway.

I'm unable to search this thread for gem related discussion and needed some opinions/thoughts. For a DW/Fury build with roughly 32 crit/2100ap unbuffed, would it be better to go with 10 crit gems as much as possible or lean towards strength gems.

I've been under the impression that crit was the way to gem, but I'm seeing maxdps.com report strength providing more overall damage.

Also what are you opinions on maxdps.com? I used to find it quite reliable back in pre-TBC days however there are so many different options and opinions with gear now.

Strength and crit should be balanced against eachother. In practice it seems I get enough strength from my items' base stats to allow me to cram my sockets full of crit gems, which is what probably propagtes the idea of 'always gem crit!', but what you need is still based on the same SEP system as usual, regardless of it being about gems or items or buffs. In practice, sometimes subbing in some inscribed orange gems gives better results than straight out crit gemming.

I simply defer to the warrior spreadsheet for choosing what to gem and when.

Speaking of the warrior spreadsheet, it shows a MASSIVE difference in the benefit WF totems have on slower weapons rather than faster weapons (it's about double for my stats I think). MS warriors, therefore, benefit much more from this totem than DW fury warriors do.

I'm glad someone mentioned this because it relates to my question as to whether a DW fury warrior wants a fast or slow MH. A slower MH will definitely deal more damage from WF, and I'm now adding that to my calculus. However, and I don't think this is too related to total DPS, what drives my crazy now (I'm currently MS spec'd) is all the "wasted rage" I have from WF procs--when they crit, I soar up to 100 rage every time it seems :P

Another thing that relates to this discussion is the idea of "optimal executes." Clearly faster weapons are better in this case. Man this is tricky...

(BTW, on this note, do MS warriors even find it optimal to use Execute over Slam when a boss is under 20%? I mean when I’m trying to burn down a boss in the last 20%, I do NOT execute spam, I simply replace Mortal Strike with Execute in my cycle—that is I continue to use Slam after every hit).

Pros of a slow MH:

Higher WW damage.
More Added damage from WF totem.
More added damage from Impale (applies only to WW and Heroic Strike).
Probably less threat intensive since Heroic Strike isn’t a major source of damage.

Cons of a slow MH:

More expensive Heroic Strikes, therefore total Heroic Strike damage is decreased.
Might not be "execute optimal" (especially when paired with a slow OH, which by the way, I’m always looking to get—besides for execute phase, a slow OH is ALWAYS better it seems to me).

Anyway, since I'm used to consistently raiding with an enhancement sham, I'm going to conclude that DW fury warriors should roll with slower MH weapons. I still haven't seen any numbers that show this to do more damage. However, when you take threat into account, faster weapons look even uglier.

Again, if anyone can get the maths on Heroic Strike threat and the other relevant damage comparisons, that would be excellent!

How exactly does a faster weapon have less WF dmg?

There are only 2 ways that I can see the sheet giving slower weapons a benefit for WF.

1. A higher % of MH swings would be HS, and not miss as much, raising the total chances to proc WF. We should be able to test this.
2. The sheet is broken somehow.

That first reason makes a lot of sense to me...that's always why I figured the spreadsheet's assessment was correct.

RE: Execute...I guess that would also depend on how much hit gear you wear on your 2H DPS gear. Either way you cut it though, I think we'd all agree that spamming Execute with a 2 hander is just a bad idea.

Execute after a Slam isn't that bad, but I never really tried.

But if the sheet shows twice as much WF damage from a slow mainhand that cant be attributed to only #1
Also if #1 is correct then the conclusion that MS warriors benefit more from WF due to their slow weaponspeed than fury does is also incorrect in that MS are likely to do less heroic strikes. (Im not factoring in the other reasons why WF may be better for MS warriors here)

MS warrior can't miss (heroics are cutting off misses for dw too, so if u could hs every mh swing, u should get similar wf dmg).

I feel almost disrespectful for suggesting this, but it doesn't happen to be that the spreadsheet still counts yellow instants as valid swings to proc from? In that case slow weapons would probably have more total 'swings' relative to its average weapon speed and damage and as such would be more potent. Another thing like this would be if WF was modeled as a PPM mechanic instead of a flat proc-chance, but that also seems unlikely. Again, I realize these two things are rather 'duh, of course we modeled it right', but since the big difference seems to be such a mystery I felt I might as well suggest it.