That is with some gear pieces no DPS Warrior would touch though (if he had better obviously). 2 daggers and some other subpar pieces. ArP is nice and all but that doesn't mean you should stack it at the cost of other good stats.
It may not prove to be a realistic assessment, but it's important to know just to what extent it can be stacked. Again, obviously not for practical usage.
So is the spreadsheet blatantly wrong here? Or that the wisdom of hit and haste < crit and AP is at fault?
Edit: Further fiddling shows that the best dps comes from any coupling with the swiftsteel bludgeon ....
Wisdom is at fault.
Haste = best stat for BT geared fury warrior. Imo for MS too, but thats personal preference with rotation. Haste only has bad connotation, because its found on HORRIBLY itemized items. Haste as stat = amazing, Haste items from BT = crap.
Bludgeon is one of the exceptions - haste item with good item budgeting.
Yes, been using bludgeons for several months, they are awesome. They provide nice rage gen and great stats for the sacrifice of a small amount of WW dmg. I constantly have people come up and tell me to lrn2play though. I explained for a while that they were great, but eventually it just got tiresome.
You've been pitching this for ages, with no solid evidence. I'm not saying 'LOL YOU'RE WRONG', but if you're going to make claims like this, please show us the theory/evidence.
You've been pitching this for ages, with no solid evidence. I'm not saying 'LOL YOU'RE WRONG', but if you're going to make claims like this, please show us the theory/evidence.
You're doing the same thing, just that you're saying the opposite without any accurate maths supporting you. We, however, have the spreadsheet, the only accurate tool for stat values, speaking for us.
You're doing the same thing, just that you're saying the opposite without any accurate maths supporting you. We, however, have the spreadsheet, the only accurate tool for stat values, speaking for us.
Moogul did do some simple maths in this thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t22705-d...compendium/p3/, if you want to have a read. Think it was Voxx also who brought up the point of even though haste increases attack speed and thus the number of attacks in a given time, those attacks are still subject to miss, dodge, glancing etc.
Also the reason a swiftsteel bludgeon is so good is because all of its stats are dps orientated. If it had 20 stam on it you could probably drop its other stats by a quarter. If you took the stamina from the Kaz'rogal belt and replaced it with hit im pretty sure everyone would have one.
Just because one item with haste on it is good, doesnt make the stat any better. Although even after writing that I do get the gut feeling that haste is pretty decent for a fury warrior, but not ms.
I do get the gut feeling that haste is pretty decent for a fury warrior, but not ms
Haste is an exceptional stat for Arms. It's also simply another option. You can chose to go the same ArP/AP/Crit route or substitute either of those for haste and end up having a good enough speed to where you won't even have to Slam anymore.
Haste is an exceptional stat for Arms. It's also simply another option. You can chose to go the same ArP/AP/Crit route or substitute either of those for haste and end up having a good enough speed to where you won't even have to Slam anymore.
I had this same discussion with a friend and even though im not sure of the numbers, getting enough haste to a point where your unable to fit slams in would gimp your actual damage output so much that it wouldnt be worth it. Besides that why would you not want to use an extra unnormalized attack when dpsing.
Looking for a little macro help here, today I picked up a second Swiftsteel Bludgeon and decided to try using the two of them for execute spaming, however i can't seem to get the macro to work correctly. It's only equiping a Bludgeon in my main hand, leaving my offhand empty. Heres what i'm using for the macro:
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
/equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it.
Try offhanding, then mainhanding? This is a shot in the dark.
Edit: Come to think of it, there is a way to place a specific bag slot into your MH and a specific bag slot into your OH. If the locations ever changed it would error. I'm not sure what the command is, but remember seeing something about it.
Haste is an exceptional stat for Arms. It's also simply another option. You can chose to go the same ArP/AP/Crit route or substitute either of those for haste and end up having a good enough speed to where you won't even have to Slam anymore.
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped.
And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing.
You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 03/13/08 at 5:42 AM.
Looking for a little macro help here, today I picked up a second Swiftsteel Bludgeon and decided to try using the two of them for execute spaming, however i can't seem to get the macro to work correctly. It's only equiping a Bludgeon in my main hand, leaving my offhand empty. Heres what i'm using for the macro:
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
/equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it.
I think WoW can´t handle two items with the same name in this way you want to. If you enchant them with different enchants i think an outfitter addon is able to put them in the right place, but with a macro like this, can´t believe you get this working. I have the same problem on my alt (shaman) with 2 trinkets with the same name and my closet gnome can´t handle it.
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped.
And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing.
You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again.
All of the old spreadsheets showed haste as being one of the best stats you could get for a 2h. It's been a while since I've looked at 2h setups, so this might have been before the haste nerf, but it was an exceptional stat at the time. You are also counting Slam into your damage. As I stated in the previous post, you can simply chose to not Slam. Where would haste factor into that equation? If haste is not good for Arms now, it was in the past, and it's also a bad idea to even bother with Slam the more haste *effects* you have active.
*edit - Plugging in my current gear shows haste to be below crit and barely below str. Adding in more pieces that have ArP increases the value of ArP, but at the same time increases the value of haste compared to crit and str. Obviously, according to that, haste isn't nearly as good as what it was before the nerf, but it's also clear by that that it was a great stat prior. So I stand corrected on it being better than "ok" for a 2h build anymore.
And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming.
Simple math doesn't show human reaction time, procs and server latency. You can theorycraft argue this to death, but Seridia has shown some insane numbers without a single Slam, and I've done similar, although in not the optimal setup. When you are proccing Flurry/DST, using haste potions whenever you can, having drums active and especially during bloodlust, you can clip large portions of DPS when trying to fit Slams in.
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped.
And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing.
You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again.
I don't have time to look into it right now, but in his defense, it did seem that last time I was wrenching with my arms-configured spreadsheet the SEP for haste was very high, almost as high as ArP or Exp. So it's no unreasonable to think Graul saw the same and based his conclusions on that.
You're doing the same thing, just that you're saying the opposite without any accurate maths supporting you. We, however, have the spreadsheet, the only accurate tool for stat values, speaking for us.
I have, on at least two occasions, posted the maths behind why I think Haste is bad - you should be able to find it quite easily. All you or Shha have said is 'check the spreadsheet', and the last time I checked (admittedly a couple of weeks ago), haste did not come out above crit.
Some of this might be down to gearing - I personally run with very little hit (I skim as close to 9% as possible without dropping below), which means my white damage is a smaller percentage of my overall damage than for a player with more +hit. I also don't raid with a Feral druid in my group, which further increases the value of crit for me.
I will do some checking later with the latest version of the spreadsheet and see what it says. Still, the spreadsheet should be based on the exact same maths that I have demonstrated which strongly supports the idea of haste being sub-optimal compared to crit.
Edit: Remember, as people have pointed out - haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects.
haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects.
Does that include Sword Spec, which I thought was a 5% chance per hit and not an actual PPM, or does it take speed into account as well?
Does that include Sword Spec, which I thought was a 5% chance per hit and not an actual PPM, or does it take speed into account as well?
Sword spec is a flat percentage, so yes, you should see more Sword Spec procs with Haste.
Conversely, you won't see more Mace Spec procs with Haste (ok, that's not terribly relevant for PvE).
You'll also see more Windfury Procs, for example, but you won't see more DST or MotB procs.
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped.
Sorry for only partially quoting you as I agree that the value of haste for slam rotations is arguable, however, adding haste does increase rage generated if you are not doing a slam rotation as swing speed is only part of the rage formula R = {7.5d/c + (f.s)}/2
Using the example of 30% crit, 1000 damage per hit, 2000 damage per crit, rounding down
Using a 3.5s swing time R[hit]=19 R[crit]=39
Using a 2.5s swing time R[hit]=18 R[crit]=36
Using the time peroid where both swing times intersect (875s)
Using a 3.5s swing time 175 hits 75 crits for total net rage of 6,250 over 875 seconds or 7.14 rage/second
Using a 2.5s swing time 245 hits 105 crits for total net rage of 8,190 over 875 seconds or 9.36 rage/second
On a slam rotation your rage generated will decrease as you increase haste as white swings are fixed but experience has shown me that as long as you are not swapping haste for another stat like crit the effect is negligible.
With haste being prevelant on a number of sunwell items and the armor penetration cap in sight I expect to see arms warriors close to a 2.5 second swing time without bloodlust / heroism. Factoring in wind fury procs and with further real raid testing you may see more dps from stopping slamming during bloodlust / heroism at those speeds.
Last edited by Cavein : 03/13/08 at 9:19 AM.
Reason: Clarity
I got my equip macro working (got 2 Bludgeons too) but i'm at work right now, will post it when getting home. I think it was equipping offhand before mnainhand that got it working...
I have, on at least two occasions, posted the maths behind why I think Haste is bad - you should be able to find it quite easily. All you or Shha have said is 'check the spreadsheet', and the last time I checked (admittedly a couple of weeks ago), haste did not come out above crit.
Some of this might be down to gearing - I personally run with very little hit (I skim as close to 9% as possible without dropping below), which means my white damage is a smaller percentage of my overall damage than for a player with more +hit. I also don't raid with a Feral druid in my group, which further increases the value of crit for me.
I will do some checking later with the latest version of the spreadsheet and see what it says. Still, the spreadsheet should be based on the exact same maths that I have demonstrated which strongly supports the idea of haste being sub-optimal compared to crit.
Edit: Remember, as people have pointed out - haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects.
Your "maths" wasn't accurate at all. Also, we're talking about endgame geared Warriors as a T4 Warrior won't be seeing any of the Sunwell Haste gear, being the first Haste gear that's itemized properly, anytime soon. Haste is one of the best scaling stats out there for a Warrior, of course it's bad if your gear is.
Your "maths" wasn't accurate at all. Also, we're talking about endgame geared Warriors as a T4 Warrior won't be seeing any of the Sunwell Haste gear, being the first Haste gear that's itemized properly, anytime soon. Haste is one of the best scaling stats out there for a Warrior, of course it's bad if your gear is.
If my "maths" wasn't accurate, please enlighten us as to why. You can't just say 'you're wrong'. Once again, I ask you to be sensible and post some evidence. In the other thread (I'm not entirely sure why we seem to have about 4 dps warrior threads now), Shha gave some decent maths and sensible discussion. You, however, have not. I'm happy to discuss the value of haste, crit, intellect or +holy damage and their effect on warrior damage, but discussion implies each sides making well thought out points and backing them up.
I'm not infallible. I might have made a mistake in my maths, but if so, POINT IT OUT. Go find my original post, quote it, and point out which bits are wrong, and WHY. Then I'll talk.
Sorry if this comes off harshly, but I'm tired of people who make unfounded (but not necessarily incorrect) statements.
I made a pretty big mistake last night, posting while frustrated with wiping. I totally ignored the fact that haste will decrease the period length of the slam cycle. Since 2H isn't limited by cooldowns like DW is, haste will increase the DPS of WW, MS and Slam... So it's better than I made it out to be, for sure. I was approaching it the wrong way. Should just stick with my own advice and use the spreadsheet. My apologies.
03/12/08, 11:43 AM
