Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped.
Thats so wrong man. Rage normalzation works of weapon speed yes, not swing speed. You may be thinking of the rage per hit model on wowwiki, (7.5d / 274.7 + f * WepSpd) / 2, which is not rage per second by any means. Here's my DW rage per second model here:
RAGE PER SECOND
A fury warrior's rage flow fully controls his second half of his DPS, his yellow attacks. To be able to determine how frequent he can use those abilities, we must arrive at an ideal RPS value.
Luckily, we already have our ideal white DPS value. All we have to do then, is to find a way to plug it into blizzard's rage generation formula, shown below for level 70.
(7.5d / 274.7 + f * WepSpd) / 2
f = 7 for MH crit, 3.5 for MH hit and OH crit, and 1.75 for OH hit
d is the damage dealt, or the damage you apply with armor taken into account. Blizzard wants us to get 1 rage for every 73.25 damage we deal plus a normalized amount based on our weapon speed and rolled hit. For example, if we were to crit with our 2.6 speed main hand for 1000 and hit with our 2.6 speed off hand for 300, we would get 22 and 6 rage.
Since we are working with infinites, we want to know rage over time, but this formula only shows the rage per hit. Luckily you have me to combine all the fancy math for you.
I think he refers to the fact that rage is normalized of swing speed for flurry. Aka if you have flurry up "WepSpd" in your equation shrinks by 25%. However thats only for flurry as far as i know. Stats haste, doesnt affect this value, and my current testing supports it. Im still far from conclusion here, maybe someone else can give his input.
However the previous post is EXTREMELY wrong.
Haste affects 100% of arms warrior damage, unless he is at haste cap. You swing more often. Thats your 40%. You slam more often too though... every slam is following a white swing - more white swings=more rage. You MS every 2 slams , so more haste= more swings=more slams=more MS. Finally you WW every 2 MS, and again it makes it dependable on haste.
To make an example. Lets say your weapon prehaste, flurried speed is 3.0, post haste 2.5 to ease the calculations.
A total hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-ww-hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-gcd rotation, done perfectly takes
(3.0+0.5)x4 = 14 seconds.
Thats 1 swing every 3.5 second
1 slam every 3.5 second
1 MS every 7 seconds
1 WW every 14 seconds.
Yes a normal slam rotation doesnt allow you to use skills on CD.
If we haste the weapon to 2.5 speed then the rotation becomes (2.5+0.5)*4=12 sec long
1 hit every 3 seconds
1 slam every 3 seconds
1 MS every 6 seconds
1 WW every 12 seconds.
Every skill usage increase 3.5/3 times . Its a bit less then raw haste value of 3/2.5 = 20%, actually 20% haste gives arms warrior an 16.(6) % increase in speed of rotation. However it still makes haste affect ALL of the warrior abilities.
So we have 2 options:
a) Haste doesnt affect rage. Rage generation/use will be exactly same - its still same 4 white swings having to support 4 slams 2 ms and 1 ww. The increase haste gives is equal to [WpnSpd/(1+haste%)+0.5]/[WpnSped+0.5]
b) Haste does affect rage. The damage increases the same, but you need more rage to keep your rotation. So unless you had surplus before, you will lack it. In most cases it means, you wont be able to support the rotation fully.
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question:
How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute?
According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy):
Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg
Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm:
2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg
However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in:
(For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage)
1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg
Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here?
Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated!
Cheers
Jack
No, Execute damage is not based on your weapon damage. Execute damage "per execute" scales with rage (duh), ArP, Crit and Expertise (and hit if not >9%). Execute damage "per second" is way more complicate dto calculate sinc eit depends on your rage generation and weapon speed(s).
If you get higher damage than the theoretically allowed, my guess is that you are forgetting buffs that add damage, e.g. Deathwish.
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question:
How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute?
According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy):
Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg
Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm:
2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg
However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in:
(For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage)
1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg
Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here?
Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated!
Cheers
Jack
Execute scales with death wish, blood frenzy as well as one-handed and two-handed weapon specializations. It can also be increased through the two set Tier 6 bonus and Improved Execute talent.
Other than that it is doubtful that your maximum execute (over what you have stated) isn't from battle grounds or an encounter where the mob or boss takes extra damage for a set time like Thaddius, the Curator, Magtheridon or Illidan Stormrage.
No, Execute damage is not based on your weapon damage. Execute damage "per execute" scales with rage (duh), ArP, Crit and Expertise (and hit if not >9%). Execute damage "per second" is way more complicate dto calculate sinc eit depends on your rage generation and weapon speed(s).
If you get higher damage than the theoretically allowed, my guess is that you are forgetting buffs that add damage, e.g. Deathwish.
Well, i wasn't interested in execute dmg per second, rather "per blow" :-)
Originally Posted by Cavein
Execute scales with death wish, blood frenzy as well as one-handed and two-handed weapon specializations. It can also be increased through the two set Tier 6 bonus and Improved Execute talent.
Other than that it is doubtful that your maximum execute (over what you have stated) isn't from battle grounds or an encounter where the mob or boss takes extra damage for a set time like Thaddius, the Curator, Magtheridon or Illidan Stormrage.
It was against a (fully sundered) lvl70 elite mob in an instance, resulting in 7.328 dmg - guildmates however had execute crits well over 8k.
Anyhow, i think i understand now what i was missing:
Execute scales with [...] as well as one-handed and two-handed weapon specializations
I'd like to see some proof of this. It makes sense that it would, but at the same time sounds sketchy. It's my understanding 3 things matter:
1. Rage (and burnoff above the minimum needed for the ability)
2. Armor (how much is left after debuffs)
3. Modifiers. The only 2 offhand being Deathwish and Ferocious Inspiration.
(4. Crit. Factor in Impale/RED.)
I've not yet seen an execute value above the theoretical ceiling mathed out in the Compendium. This math didn't include 1h/2h spec.
Edit: Applies to above poster as well. If anyone has a WWS demonstrating a value above 8272 or thereabouts on a non squirrelly mob, I'll take it as proof enough.
Edit2: @Jackpott: I don't know where you are getting the ability to spec 2/2 Impale, 2/2 Imp Execute, 3/3 Focused Rage...
I've been raiding a bit on my 33/28 PvE specced Warrior and I have a question about maximizing DPS sub 20%.
I've been popping Recklessness, Death Wish and throwing Execute into my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation but this doesn't feel like it's working. Is it worth throwing on two 1hers and spamming Execute (in the style of a Fury Warr)? My worry is that with only 9% hit my rage gen could be streaky even with Recklessness. Is it worth sticking it out with my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation and forgetting about Execute all together?
Yes it is worth it putting 2 1h'ers on. Helps if the offhand one is reasonably fast for rage generation. There are one handers out there that also have hit rating on them. All the way from Vindicator's Brand up to Swiftsteel Bludgeon. Even with recklessness powering flurry non stop, a 2h isn't going to hit that fast and you will be wasting GCDs.
I'd like to see some proof of this. It makes sense that it would, but at the same time sounds sketchy. It's my understanding 3 things matter:
Wowhead lists 1h and 2h specializations as a global aura that adds 10%/5% damage done so it should work with anything you do while you have a 1h/2h equipped. It's already been proven that 1h spec works with shields as long as you use a 1h so assuming that it also works on Execute isn't too far off.
From my experience, Execute damage per rage is always most effective (damage per rage wise) when hit at the minimum rage possible. So therefore you want to hit it as often as possible GCD permitting and try to not bank it up (obviously).
In a raid situation, Once you hit 30 rage, bloodthirst will outperform execute. Here are the numbers.
15 rage execute @30 rage = 1240. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2756
10 rage execute @30 rage = 1345. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2989
7 rage execute @30 rage = 1408. AP required for BT to outdamage = 3128
These AP values are easy to obtain in a raid situation. When using recklessness, haste pots, use trinket, heroism etc, its very easy to get 30 rage per GCD. When modeling execute, one must take into consideration the chance to go over 30 rage on a GCD, which if that happens they will hit bloodthirst instead of execute because I will do more damage.
That being said, basically one would have to tabulate the percent chance of an occurence of an event (such as main hand hit, off hand crit versus main hand hit off hand glance, etc.) and then multiply to that the rage ganied from that event. You take each of those and add them together to find the average rage gained per event, then you can find the rage that can be used either for an execute or a bloodthirst.
Keep in mind, there are dozens upon dozens of combinations of events. Heroism, recklessness, haste pot, damage modifiers, main hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, off hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, etc... Combinatorics can tell you how many combinations you can have (see Cominatorics on Wikipedia) but its up to the player to be able to figure out how to make the model work and sound right. And even then if it were made possible to figure out how to do it, it would take literally forever to combine all of the events.
...Also, we're talking about endgame geared Warriors as a T4 Warrior won't be seeing any of the Sunwell Haste gear, being the first Haste gear that's itemized properly, anytime soon. Haste is one of the best scaling stats out there for a Warrior, of course it's bad if your gear is.
Badge Loot despite that you qualified it with "itemized properly" they are still significant upgrades for many people who are wondering how much gain they'll get from haste especially with all of the ArP they might be getting their hands on now that Hyjal/BT are ^soon^ open to the public.
I wanted to point out something rather odd that I noticed last MH clear. I'm fairly sure I managed to convert a windfury proc into a Heroic Strike. My computer has horrible fps so during Heroisms I generally just spam my Heroic Strike button and pray it doesn't leave me rage starved. While doing this I noticed that my combat text listed something like 2467 Heroic Strike [2 hits]. Now granted my computer's fps isn't that great it IS good enough to differentiate between two Heroic Strikes that would have been a bit more than a second apart. I'm going to try and see if I can pull off a similar feat next raid and if so possibly take a look at the combat log for confirmation. Has anyone else noticed this?
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
I wanted to point out something rather odd that I noticed last MH clear. I'm fairly sure I managed to convert a windfury proc into a Heroic Strike. My computer has horrible fps so during Heroisms I generally just spam my Heroic Strike button and pray it doesn't leave me rage starved. While doing this I noticed that my combat text listed something like 2467 Heroic Strike [2 hits]. Now granted my computer's fps isn't that great it IS good enough to differentiate between two Heroic Strikes that would have been a bit more than a second apart. I'm going to try and see if I can pull off a similar feat next raid and if so possibly take a look at the combat log for confirmation. Has anyone else noticed this?
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
I am quite sure if you are spamming fast enough this will happen with both HS and cleave. During Hyjal trash I get lots of "quad cleaves" due to the excess rage I get from tanking a few ghouls/spider guys.
In the protection warrior thread mention is made of being able to use heroic strike on WF procs if you spam it fast enough. I was considering making a macro on my g15 to spam heroic strike, should be able to confirm it pretty easily if I use a two hander and get some testing in on blasted lands mobs.
edit: After finding no shaman around to help me test at this hour, it occurs to me that anyone who happened to be sword spec could probably test this even more easily, as I'm fairly certain if you can double HS off a windfury proc, the same should work for the extra swings from sword spec.
I am quite sure if you are spamming fast enough this will happen with both HS and cleave. During Hyjal trash I get lots of "quad cleaves" due to the excess rage I get from tanking a few ghouls/spider guys.
This mechanic, when paired up with sweeping strikes produces some absurd numbers if you get lucky. Get 100 rage, spam cleave and pop sweeping with WF/sword spec and watch the multihits come in like sweeping/WW of old.
I can confirm that windfury procs can be converted into heroic strikes.
Last time i parsed my combat log after a teron kill, i found several windfury->heroic strike proccs.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if you could Heroic Strike WF procs. There are many bugs in this game concerning many events happening in the same time: flurry bug with same speed weapons; reflecting all spells cast on you with less than ~0.5sec interval; etc
I suppose there isnt much one can do to control or predict it though? Timing attacks so you get a free 445+modifiers AP would be nice.
Then again there are so many problems with WF that Im not even sure its own attacks get the bonus sometimes.
Yes it is worth it putting 2 1h'ers on. Helps if the offhand one is reasonably fast for rage generation. There are one handers out there that also have hit rating on them. All the way from Vindicator's Brand up to Swiftsteel Bludgeon. Even with recklessness powering flurry non stop, a 2h isn't going to hit that fast and you will be wasting GCDs.
Some people think this is the logical approach, but chances are you will produce more DPS, let alone retain more DPR by just Slamming an additonal time in your normal rotation. Slam is more DPR and DPS. You would just need to be able to maintain 30 rage every 3 seconds (excluding Slam cast/delay) to beat a 15 rage Execute every global by a good margin.
03/13/08, 2:41 PM
